LED Thread regarding stalk weight difference between LED & HPS

CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
HydroEnthused said:
Hello Mr. CobKits! Pleasure to have you in the debate. I think you’re just the person I was waiting for to drop in and share his knowledge. I have 2 side by side hyper dialed in 8’ x 12’ rooms with 18-20 gallon Rubbermaid Brute DWC bins bubbling away. 6-600 watt hps in each.
8.5 months of the year I can dial in any temp. How would you light up both rooms so that I can first show the results with HPS lights (6 hortilux super hps 600 with adjusta wing avengers retracted to the 3rd adjustment hole) and than the superior results of what could be done with 2 side by side LED rooms. How would you light an 8’ x 12’ footprint to go head-to-head with 3600 watts of HPS ? I will buy your wares in Sep 2018 if you can suggest an LED lighting strategy. Keep in mind that money means nothing to me.
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if money means nothing to you then just keep using HPS. you'll get the same results your electric bill will just be 30% higher every month. If you can control you temps you can get the same LED density with HPS, theres really nothing special about either light that makes a huge difference in quality

but back to yor question about a side by side, i would make sure they ae the same area, same nutes, same humidity. LED side should be 10deg F warmer to compensate for the lack of IR in the LED spectrum (or you can think about it as the gross amount of extra IR in the HID spectrum). in any case you probably need a dehumidifier to maintain the same humidity on each side. to the best of your ability try to keep root temps similar as well

if your 3600W of HPS is single ended you can probably match it with 2000-2300W of LED. If your HPS are DE, probably 2500-2900 W of LED. Depends on the efficiency of the LED rig you build. since you say money is no object we would probably want to spend a little more upfront to un a higher number of diodes softer for better efficiency (the cost of which would be offset in electricity over the life of the fixture)
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
sparkygeek said:
Since you cut my quotes to seemingly try to support your argument I can no longer take anything you say any more seriously than the troll(s) on this thread. You clearly don't like LEDs shown in the proper light, which was my only goal. I asked questions that are relevant which is why you chose not to answer my question. My COB light was exactly representative of where COB manufacturing was last year... And that's why you passed on my question regarding currently manufactured COB systems. Trying to fit everyone's experiences in the same category just shows you have no grasp on the challenges LEDs face... Your arguments are so flimsy and uninformed, I can see why you are hostile to my comments. Best of luck!
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well i guess we're done here. if you have a specific question you want me to answer, go ahead and ask it. pretty sure i answered the rest multiple times and even went as far as creating a nice sized list of reputable LED fixture manufacturers that are likely 50% more efficient than your mystery box fixture... but we'll never know, as mentioned above you still wont tell us what it is.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
Well not on the consumer end, LEDs at a given efficacy cost 1/10 of what they did 5 years ago.
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The price wasnt my point but they are just as costly now as they were five years ago, i remember quite well.

Also there is no tech left you havent exploited, prices will fall from here on it seems.
 
Diesel0889

Diesel0889

Well-Known Member
Imho I think many high end led lights hlg, fluence, timber and a few others can very much so compete with hps and match yeild and save you a few bucks, more so if it' hard for you to control heat. The bottom line to me is hps/mh are great light point period but led is the future and has evolved to a point that it has shown it can compete with hps and is getting better still. If you buy junk you will recive junk. Buying a good light and having some know how with growing can yeild comparable results and has been proven. I will not ever question anyones personal choice in lighting and have about used it all myself and I have had great success with a mh/Hps combo, led, cfl and helped quite a bit with cmh grows and think they are all great lights. I have been screwed with cheap junk led lights and I have had great results with the better ones. To each his own, do what works for you personally they all have a spot. Hid lighting has such a following that it wont be going anywhere soon and I dont think we will see led going anywhere any time soon. I like a debate as much as the next guy but the led/hps argument is never going to end. I personally am a believer and don' see myself going back to hps now that I have used or seen better led units preform, some beside hps. I don't do the commercial thing just 5x5 or 4x4 like alot of you for me and my girl. i cant speak for that.. All are good options and will produce results. Just do your reserach before you buy led and don't Buy cheap! If on a budget hps can be had cheaper. Do for you what works for you. Jmho :bigjoint:
HAPPY GROWING!!!
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
The price wasnt my point but they are just as costly now as they were five years ago, i remember quite well.
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ill leave it to you to provide even one example. heres mine: just 3 years ago people were paying $60 for cree cobs which you can get the same level of performance today for $10

Kingrow1 said:
Also there is no tech left you havent exploited, prices will fall from here on it seems.
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prices have been falling and continue to.

"no tech left to exploit" sounds like something you literally made up, but if in fact, it is true, somebody should tell all the LED companies with active R&D budgets that total in the tens of millions.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Good to hear, when is the next evolution coming out....?



CobKits said:
ill leave it to you to provide even one example. heres mine: just 3 years ago people were paying $60 for cree cobs which you can get the same level of performance today for $10


prices have been falling and continue to.

"no tech left to exploit" sounds like something you literally made up, but if in fact, it is true, somebody should tell all the LED companies with active R&D budgets that total in the tens of millions.
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Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
ill leave it to you to provide even one example. heres mine: just 3 years ago people were paying $60 for cree cobs which you can get the same level of performance today for
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But todays current tech cost you sixty bucks cause no one wants three year old leds... same price to buy in then as it was now.
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
But todays current tech cost you sixty bucks cause no one wants three year old leds... same price to buy in then as it was now.
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it actually doesnt. the top of the line chips which are better than both of the options i described above are still well under $60. and any of the three are an improvement over HPS when applied correctly
Kingrow1 said:
Good to hear, when is the next evolution coming out....?
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right now. this was a giant leap in efficacy. in the past you were relegated to low-efficiency chips if you wanted red monos. they bumped 20-30% in one generation.

https://www.osram.com/os/press/press-releases/osram_sets_new_standards_in_horticulture_lighting_with_oslon_square_hyper_red.jsp
 
Diesel0889

Diesel0889

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
it actually doesnt. the top of the line chips which are better than both of the options i described above are still well under $60. and any of the three are an improvement over HPS when applied correctly


right now. this was a giant leap in efficacy. in the past you were relegated to low-efficiency chips if you wanted red monos. they bumped 20-30% in one generation.



Agreed I'm with cobkits.the current cob offerings are MUCH better than a couple years ago and I believe alot of the misinformation about led come from those that have been burned in the past by a shitty led myself included. Led is not the gimmick it was when it all began they are great lights that grow great bud. I have no proof of this but I have noticed higher resin content (visibly) than under hps and over all better looking buds. Same mom,nutes,environment etc. Imho it is all very subjective as everyone has a different style, experience, genetics etc. I'm not a know it all and come here to conversate and learn to get better not argue. This is just my personal experiance. Also an opinion but having been here a bit... cobkits is not a know it all just someone that is passing good info around this forum(knows led talk). Do your research and ask people that have used good led with results worth writing home about and make your own decisin about if it' for you or not. Hps flat out works and always will but imo led has caught up enough to be competitive and worth taking note. I was a non believer until I saw results from companys like hlg, timber, fluence or DIY fixtures etc. The results/quality speak for the company making them not the company themself. They can market how they want to but people here and just growers in general weed out the junk eventualy and the best ones are left standing. This really is something (sadly) you still need to read up on before making a decision. Respected members here that use them will steer you in the right direction. Thankfully there are a few companys that have good led lighting. It Is a personal preference... mine is led. I took the plunge on a spyder x plus by fluence and can't wait to move!! Nukeheads grape ape and brothers grimm roseta stone burning a hole in my drawer lol. Whatever light you use be safe and happy growing!!
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Diesel0889

Diesel0889

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
hey @Diesel0889 that quote went all sideways

your fluence will crush it btw. excellent example of a company with real specs behind their products
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I do feel it us a winner. Doing VERY good in a buddys room for sure so I have no doubt that it will more than serve my needs in a 4.7x4.7x6.5 sun hut. In fact it will be more than I need but I had to get it! Should be one to hang onto for sure. More yeild with less heat and less electric. I can't wait to see what they bring in the future. Any reputable company for that matter.:bigjoint: my buddy has started to replace his DE hps in favor of those. Was it a good move...no idea but it does preform well and he said the cost of controllng heat was an issue with the 1000w hps and that his full fluence room is much happier. I do trust him for advice with no hesitation. Guy that runs my local shop said he is constantly pulling 2.2lb+ per light and is in the process of swapping to all fluence in favor of his multiple 1000watt single ended hps set up. Also said his buddy is pulling close to 2.5lb per light and no less. It truly is amazing how far they have come. I have not used mine yet but based on what I have seen with my own eyes in my buddys room I'm sold. I have not seen shop owners set up or his buddy just what I'm told but I do not have a hard time believing it and I do know from talking with him he has the credentials so to speak to make it happen if it's possible. I would like to start a journal when I get going and maybe put the whole led sucks to rest. I think the spyder x plus and a little added co2 may do the trick...i hope i can pull that lol. I'm no master but I do ok. It may be a while before I can get up and moving as I'm trying to move..just getting all the seeds I can handle until then to keep me busy.. got a bunch from nukeheads and a dank team order on the way with brothers grimm Apollo xx (Apollo 11 fem.) And roseta stone...prob some free ones to I hope..ill post and comment on the order when it comes in if anyone cares to know.HAPPY :bigjoint:growing!!!
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Diesel0889 said:
I do feel it us a winner. Doing VERY good in a buddys room for sure so I have no doubt that it will more than serve my needs in a 4.7x4.7x6.5 sun hut. In fact it will be more than I need but I had to get it! Should be one to hang onto for sure. More yeild with less heat and less electric. I can't wait to see what they bring in the future. Any reputable company for that matter.:bigjoint: my buddy has started to replace his DE hps in favor of those. Was it a good move...no idea but it does preform well
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not the worst for sure. one of the best of the fancy fixtures and on par with the best of the grassroots stuff. if he understands the relevance of their 2.0 umol/J or whatever thats a benchmark he can use to be a smart shopper

no shade on fluence but there are cheaper options at the same efficiency. if you dont need listed/certified fixtures you can save some money
 
Diesel0889

Diesel0889

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
not the worst for sure. one of the best of the fancy fixtures and on par with the best of the grassroots stuff. if he understands the relevance of their 2.0 umol/J or whatever thats a benchmark he can use to be a smart shopper

no shade on fluence but there are cheaper options at the same efficiency. if you dont need listed/certified fixtures you can save some money
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Absolutey for sure you are correct. I like to be different and I only know of a few that have it and I prefer to try new things. I got my taxs and decided I wanted a top if the line fixture. I had my heart set on timber ( I won' hesitate to buy one still) Dan seems straight forward and honest and not just in the led game to make a buck. I don't know him worth shit but he seems very respectable. But I knew alot of people running his fixture. Will prob get a newer version if he makes one next year.
 
Diesel0889

Diesel0889

Well-Known Member
Or an hlg 600 or whatever the newst one is... whenever I can get shit set up... someday I hope I move soon!!!!
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
it actually doesnt. the top of the line chips which are better than both of the options i described above are still well under $60. and any of the three are an improvement over HPS when applied correctly


right now. this was a giant leap in efficacy. in the past you were relegated to low-efficiency chips if you wanted red monos. they bumped 20-30% in one generation.

https://www.osram.com/os/press/press-releases/osram_sets_new_standards_in_horticulture_lighting_with_oslon_square_hyper_red.jsp
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See now this is why led are too overated, thats hardly anything, you keep slapping 20-30% on everything and the hps grows over the last decade still outgrow your lights. Your previous claims equate to you saying you get a third more yeild from led, many hps grow pics here disagree.

You say about this cheapness but there you are with statements like 'if money is no object buy these' whilst here with me you tout just the cheap systems....please!

I have no real wish to get into it with advertisers but its tit for tat because its too easy, you say you dont need ir and to run temps up.... bs, sunlight is full of ir, way more than a poxy hps, many studies added extra ir to hps and grew better. Also hps dosent raise ambients unless it can heat 200 odd cfm off air by ten degrees every sixty seconds, some easy maths there for you as your so good at light equations and heat etc.

Theres so many flaws in your leds that single point high lumen sources just simply dont have. Yer on paper your at 200% of a hps on par and what not but it dosent work out like that in the real world or trust me every grower here would own an led unit and be seeing twice the bud than before they bought it.

Laughable...
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
See now this is why led are too overated, thats hardly anything,
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so you dont understand umol/J, then?

Kingrow1 said:
and the hps grows over the last decade still outgrow your lights.
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"my lights"? im sure they do. probably 1000 HPS out there for every rig ive ever sold

Kingrow1 said:
Your previous claims equate to you saying you get a third more yeild from led
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thats a fact. with quality LEDs. same yield or less with shitty LEDs like the OP talks about

Kingrow1 said:
You say about this cheapness but there you are with statements like 'if money is no object buy these' whilst here with me you tout just the cheap systems....please!
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work on your reading comprehension please

Kingrow1 said:
Yer on paper your at 200% of a hps on par
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??

link?

not sure what youre talking about here

Kingrow1 said:
or trust me every grower here would own an led unit
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oh they will... eventually

Kingrow1 said:
and be seeing twice the bud than before they bought it.
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your claim,not mine, chief

keep it real...
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
so you dont understand umol/J, then?



"my lights"? im sure they do. probably 1000 HPS out there for every rig ive ever sold


thats a fact. with quality LEDs. same yield or less with shitty LEDs like the OP talks about


work on your reading comprehension please


??

link?

not sure what youre talking about here


oh they will... eventually


your claim,not mine, chief

keep it real...
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An advancement to me would be solving the diodes efficiency problem, more voltage anytime soon or still limited to lower small diodes for the past few years, science much?

The rest is easy enough to understand, no reason to act thick, i understand umols perfectly well its just a shame you dont understand what ive written...

As to everyone owning leds, i need not quote the limitations again, many Uk shops just simply dropped them so not going quite to plan.
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
An advancement to me would be solving the diodes efficiency problem,
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"problem"? how much more efficient than HID would you like them to be?

Kingrow1 said:
more voltage anytime soon or still limited to lower small diodes for the past few years, science much?
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science all day bro. diode voltage is no more limiting than electrochemical voltage in batteries. you start your car everyday on 2V lead acid cells and run your laptop all day on 3.7V li-ion cells. the largest solar arrays in the world and every electric car out there also uses low-voltage cells in series, no big deal and zero reason to find a higher voltage basis.

Kingrow1 said:
The rest is easy enough to understand,
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then why do you dodge every specific question i ask you? Your fundamentals are tenuous at best.

Kingrow1 said:
As to everyone owning leds, i need not quote the limitations again, many Uk shops just simply dropped them so not going quite to plan.
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its a good thing that every LED is equal. how foolish i have been to grow so much with them after the UFOs i bought in 2007 were only as good as the HPS they replaced
 
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