Getting to the bottom of the Phosphorus question in flower

I'm thinking I could use dry Koolbloom or monopotassium phosphate as a PK booster and get the NPK ppm ratio very close to 1:1:2

rkymtnman said:

agreed.

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Why do you agree? Part of the reason I started this post was to learn. What do you think of my Maxibloom analysis? The initial numbers aren't PPMs, just ratios by elemental weight. I then applied the atomic mass of N to the N ratio (100) and came up with a factor of 1.61 to increase that number back to 100 (represents 100 PPM when mixed with water in the correct ratio). Each of the other elements has the 1.61 factor applied then is multiplied by each elements atomic mass. Coming out to 100-65-145-40-27

Jennygrows2 said:

Why do you agree?

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I agree because I've used lots of GH products and they all grow cannabis well.

I started out with GH 3 part, went to floranova bloom and now i'm on maxibloom.

i personally think dyna gro foliage pro is the best veg nute out there.9-3-6 npk. and all 16 micros. i use it thru the stretch phase and then switch to maxibloom. i just started adding bio ag tm-7 to maxibloom. adds fulvic and humic acid and some micros.

people worry too much about nutes. get your enviro 100% perfect first.

Jennygrows2 said:

What do you think of my Maxibloom analysis?

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what grams per gallon are you using for your analysis?

Ahh I see, thanks. I started out using Maxibloom then switched to a Micro/bloom lucas formula. Switched from hydro to soil and am now switching back to hydro. Would like to keep things simple with a dry fert but I do have an interest in understanding and playing around with NPK ratios.

rkymtnman said:

what grams per gallon are you using for your analysis?

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Nothing specific in my math so far. One would mix Maxibloom to a particular ppm (maybe 750) and assume the N was at 100. Main point with the final NPK ppm ratios is that if you can achieve 100 ppm of N the other ppms will be at the stated levels. I'll try and work out grams per gallon necessary to get exactly 100 ppm N this evening.

Jennygrows2 said:

I'll try and work out grams per gallon necessary to get exactly 100 ppm N this evening.

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if you calculate 7 grams per gallon but your plant is getting nute burn at 5 grams per gallon, you just wasted a bunch of time.

try 3 hempy buckets. one with gh 3 part, one with floranova bloom and one with maxibloom. you choose which works best for you. and then tweak it if you need to.

read this site. it gives the background of Lucas, some other nute recipes from other famous growers, and a nute calc at the bottom

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

rkymtnman said:

read this site. it gives the background of Lucas, some other nute recipes from other famous growers, and a nute calc at the bottom

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

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no offense... @Jennygrows2 but, she doesn't understand what shes saying

shes confusing different things and I cant really reply cuz im confused as to how shes coming up with this info

its impossible to calculate ppm without setting parameters for water volume and grams (for dry) or mls (ofr liquid)per gallon

so whatever math she thinks shes doing it makes zero sense

I tried to explain but wasn't able to get my point across,

@Jennygrows2
in short
you wouldn't need to add mkp or any bloom booster to maxibloom.. its already formulated as a bloom enhancer and already has oodles of P and plenty of K

the way your getting your math is out, your confusing all the numbers that mean different things

your not to blame, its the industry who makes it confusing

I recommend you just simply use

either
maxi bloom and maxi grow

or

floranova grow and bloom

and just follow the directions on the bottles

these two brands are very simple and well balanced and complete not requiring anything more

doing what your doing now at your level will only make your head spin

keeping it simple means not using several products when you can simply use 1

rkymtnman said:

read this site. it gives the background of Lucas, some other nute recipes from other famous growers, and a nute calc at the bottom

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

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Thank you.

im4satori said:

in short
you wouldn't need to add mkp or any bloom booster to maxibloom.. its already formulated as a bloom enhancer and already has oodles of P and plenty of K

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I know that. I'm just theorizing on what it would take to achieve a 1:1:2 ratio (which is what some people seem to suggest for flowering). Whether it's worth doing is another matter. The Maxibloom schedule does list a PK booster, FWIW.

As far as my math, punching in the NPK values in the nute calc in the link rkymtnman posted provides this information

7.5 grams of Maxibloom per gallon of water yields 99 ppm N, 130 ppm P, 230 ppm K.

I think the nomenclature of the calculator is wrong because these are the exact same values I calculated as elemental weight ratios assuming an elemental weight of 100 for N, so it's not like I'm pulling the number from thin air. The point of this thread is to learn, and you've been very helpful pointing me in new directions so far, so I hope you continue to find the thread entertaining... but please quit telling me to just use a product.

I'll try to detail my steps so it makes more sense.

Maxibloom is listed as 5-15-14. For practical purposes I assume 5% nitrate. P2O5 is 44% P so 15 * .44 = 6.6%P. K2O is 83% K so 14 * .83 = 11.62%K

This gives us an elemental weight ratio of 5 - 6.6 - 11.62 (same as 99-130-230)

In order to convert this to PPM we need to factor in the atomic mass of each element. N = 62g/mol, P = 31g/mol and K = 39g/mol

5 * .62 = 3.1
6.6 * .31 = 2.046
11.62 * .39 = 4.532

These numbers represent the ppm ratio in a bag of Maxibloom.

I'm doing this slightly different than I did previously so we'll use a factor of 32.25 to convert the N value of 3.1 to 100.

3.1 * 32.25 = 100
2.046 * 32.25 = 66
4.532 * 32.25 = 146

So, if you mix enough Maxibloom in water to achieve 100 PPM nitrate then you would also have 66 ppm elemental P and 146 ppm elemental K.

It suggests the NPK ppm ratio of Maxibloom is very close to 2:1:3 and is actually 3:2:4.5

I don't think that is a coincidence. If you think it is, helping me to correct the math would be appreciated.

Jennygrows2 said:

Maxibloom is listed as 5-15-14. For practical purposes I assume 5% nitrate. P2O5 is 44% P so 15 * .44 = 6.6%P. K2O is 83% K so 14 * .83 = 11.62%K

This gives us an elemental weight ratio of 5 - 6.6 - 11.62 (same as 99-130-230)

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1. you can't assume it's 5% nitrate, you need to know what %ammoniacal, %nitrate.

and put 7.5 grams into the calc = 99ppmN, 130ppmP, 230ppmK. so the actual ratio is 1:1.3:2.3

Man ive used GH, Ionic, Cultured Solutions, Dynagro, Heavy 16 and the easiest for me is Jacks, Calcium Nitrate, Epsom, MKP.

I mix up stock containers in 1gal distilled water in which is remove 28oz to give room for displacement once I put dry nutrients in. This also gives me a nice and easy 1oz per gal of reservoir. I mix at 100:1. I have part A and part B to keep the calcium away from your phosphates and sulphates

Im due for a new stock so im going to follow the ratios satori told me and see how the girls like it. I have recently just been using Calcium Nitrate and Jacks with good looking plants

rkymtnman said:

you can't assume it's 5% nitrate, you need to know what %ammoniacal, %nitrate.

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It doesn't make any difference in the calculator. 5% nitrate or 4.5% nitrate and .5% ammoniacal both yield 100 ppm at 7.5g/gallon

rkymtnman said:

and put 7.5 grams into the calc = 99ppmN, 130ppmP, 230ppmK. so the actual ratio is 1:1.3:2.3

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Okay, so those are the values. I'd like to understand how they happen, because if I apply the elemental weight of P (44% of P2O5) and K (83% of K2O) to 5-15-14 I come up with the same ratio (5 - 6.6 - 11.62). Multiply by a factor of 20 = 100 - 132 - 232 (variance due to rounding P and K percentages to .44 and .83).

So I'm not sure how I'm getting those numbers simply by reducing P2O5 and K2O... because this represents weight (not ppm) right? 5-15-14 = % of weight. Reducing P2O5 weight and K2O weight to P weight and K weight still yield weight, just elemental rather than molecular. Since each of those elements has a different atomic mass it seems like the ppm ratio should be different than weight ratios but the calculator indicates they are the same. You can see why this is confusing me?

Assuming those are the correct ppm values, it's possible to convert most "bottle ratios" to ppm ratios by this formula

N = N
P = P2O5 * .44
K = K2O * .83

Take those values and multiply them by a factor that causes N to be 100. It won't tell you how many grams or ml per gallon are necessary to achieve 100 PPM N but apparently it does describe the ppm ratio and P and K levels if N is 100.

Maxibloom
N = 5 * 20 = 100
P = 15 * .44 * 20 = 132
K = 14 * .83 * 20 = 232

Jacks 10-30-20 formula
N = 10 * 10 = 100
P = 30 * .44 * 20 = 132
K = 20 * .83 * 10 = 166

I tried adding Jacks Professional Bloom Booster into the calc and came up with the exact same numbers 100/132/166 using 3.8 grams per gallon

Assuming all this is correct (how I'm still not sure yet) Maxibloom contains way too much P and K if one is trying to achieve a PPM of 100/50/150. Jacks contains way too much P if one is trying to achieve a PPM of 100/50/150

Assuming all that is correct, why do they use so much P, back to the original question in the thread title...

To achieve a 100/50/150 ratio a "bottle/bag ratio" would need to be 5-6-9 or 10-12-18. Almost nobody makes such a product. Shake & Grow 10-12-18 granular Tomato Fertilizer is the only one I can find. The closest thing in Jack's lineup is Tomato Feed which comes out to 101/55/211 at 3.2 grams per gallon.

Jennygrows2 said:

To achieve a 100/50/150 ratio

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contact customhydronutrients.com and they will hook you up.

or if you want to copy @im4satori recipe, he posted it here. copy it verbatim.

<thread closed>

im going to take another try at getting us all on the same page @Jennygrows2

im not sure about all the math your doing, it seems like your making some assumptions on how the math is done

above is a picture of my nutrient calculator, its built on an excel spread sheet that does the math for me

heres how it works; as best I can describe

on another page I plug in the % amounts for each element in any one particular fertilizer

then I tell the calculator how many gallons im mixing

the calculator thru math conversion is able to determine the amount of an element in PPM that would be in a solution based on the weight (for dry ) or mls (for liquids) your adding

the math your doing or the conversions you've concluded are bad equations and an incorrect way to achieve the correct answers

your trying (apparently) to make the % amounts balance at a ratio of 1:1:2 as they are

but you must first convert the % amount into the ppm amount that would exist in a given volume of water

in order to do this math the calculator has so have certain information to make the equation complete

youd have to know the % amounts listed for each product or bottle
youd have to know how many grams per gallon or mls per gallon your using of each fertilizer bottle and also how many gallons its being mixed in

unless your figuring that into your math its impossible for you to get the ppm and therefore impossible for you to come up with the ratios you speak of...unless I or someone else does it for you

I don't actually know the math or how it converts within my calculator and ive never bothered to try and learn it... im fine with just using the calculator..so I cant provide you with t he proper equations

but what I can tell you isw that you've made some assumptions I don't quit understand

looking at this page of my calculator

my product is "calcium nitrate" which the label says is 15% N and 19% Ca

I also input the reservoir size, on this page it says 640 gallons

if I add 2 grams per gallon calcium nitrate per 1 gallon water
or
1280 grams per 640 gallons

and let it dissolve ...then took a sample of that water to the lab and had it tested ... thye water analysis or lab test should show

82ppmm N
100 ppm CA

plus or minus whats in your source water

on this page of the calculator you input the products at the top where it says products name

and the % amounts for each

after you've inputted all the % amounts for each product being used or available to you

you csn then switch to the other page (the first one I posted) and begin formulating fertilizer blends or revealing whats actually in the bottles from the hydro stores

you can get this calculator and all the nutrients you need to do whatever custome shit you want from this source

http://www.customhydronutrients.com/dry-water-soluble-fertilizer-compounds-inorganic-salts-c-1.html

email him and make a purchase and he will likely email you this same calculator on request

I got this version of mine from him

years and years and years ago it was floating around someone made a basic version and It got traction
eventually I came across this one which is better

I've figured it out!

I was looking at the N and Ca relationship on the bag of Maxibloom. They're both 5% by weight. When I put in 1 g/gallon in the calc it indicates 13ppm of both N and Ca. Then it hit me. My mistake was to think ppm was referencing atoms per million atoms. That's why I was trying to add an additional step by factoring in the atomic mass of NO3, P and K.

I feel a little dumb taking so long to figure it out, but it is what it is. Thank you @im4satori and @rkymtnman for trying to make sense of my posts.

PPM ratio of NPK (by weight) = (N) : (P2O5*.44) : (K2O*.83)
1g is 264.17 ppm of a gallon.

It's as simple as that. I can use that information to determine that it takes 7.5g of 5% N to equal 100 ppm N in a gallon and that if P = 15% and K = 14% then the NPK ppm will be 100, 130, 230.

SO, now that's out of the way, how come there's so much P and K in Maxibloom? As I mentioned earlier, if NPK ppm ratio is ideal at 100:50:150 then the correct "bottle ratio" is 5-6-9. The only pre-mixed fert I could find with that ratio is granular. Jack's Tomato FeED at 12-15-13 can produce a NPK ppm of 100:50:200 using 3.125g/gallon. I will look into mixing my own, but I'm sure you can understand my being suspicious of 100:50:150 when there's not a single product on the market that achieves it except a granular tomato feed. If it's so great, how come you have to mix it yourself?

Now that my math is worked out I'm going to go back and analyse feed charts to see what the canna specific companies are wanting us to put in the water.

Jennygrows2 said:

It's as simple as that. I can use that information to determine that it takes 7.5g of 5% N to equal 100 ppm N in a gallon and that if P = 15% and K = 14% then the NPK ppm will be 100, 130, 230.

SO, now that's out of the way, how come there's so much P and K in Maxibloom? As I mentioned earlier, if NPK ppm ratio is ideal at 100:50:150 then the correct "bottle ratio" is 5-6-9. The only pre-mixed fert I could find with that ratio is granular. Jack's Tomato FeED at 12-15-13 can produce a NPK ppm of 100:50:200 using 3.125g/gallon. I will look into mixing my own, but I'm sure you can understand my being suspicious of 100:50:150 when there's not a single product on the market that achieves it except a granular tomato feed. If it's so great, how come you have to mix it yourself?

Now that my math is worked out I'm going to go back and analyse feed charts to see what the canna specific companies are wanting us to put in the water.

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exactly...perfect... you got it