Supplementation vs solo CXB

Hi all,

Disclaimer : If you're not interested, please, DON'T PANIC ! don't bother replying, ignore this topic and move out ! it's probably for math "tweakers"

Intro : In my eternal quest for optimal configuration by doing math stoned I have come to an interesting alternative to the simple CXB3590 CD 3500K option.

Until now, best $$$/efficiency configuration seemed to me as being:

3 x CXB3590 3500K CD powered @49W each by an ELG-150-C (cheaper than HLG on 230V)
with holder and lens ...
According to pct 53% efficiency.

Some Info :

1) 4 CXB3070's 4000/3500K BB @~36W and 1050mA have just about identical efficiency to 3 CXB3590 CD @49W...
but will deliver a couple less W (+- 144 vs 147)

2) Using prices from Jerry@kingbrite : if you include the price of lens and holder: 3 CXB3590 are more expensive than 4 CXB3070
(enough to pay for 2 of see below ...)

While this doesn't really make the 3070's better, it makes them more attractive for supplementing :

I've been looking at supplementing options, deep/hyper red being the obvious target, as it is lacking a bit, and most importantly provides the highest photon flux per PAR W...

After looking at overpriced pcbs with multiple monos, I found these :
http://www.ledrise.com/product_info.php?info=p2605_Osram-Oslon-SSL--High-Power-Hyper-Red-LED--400mW--645nm--Square-PCB-1x1cm.html
Could this be the new best config ? (on 230V) :

- ELG-150-C1050
- 3 CXB3070 BB 4000K
- 3 x Osram oslon Hyper red

Note :
- As according to datasheet, the load being slightly over max V, I expect max current to be closer to 1000mA than the usual 1050mA.
- The hyper reds would provide about 8W out of 150W dissipation, thats : 5.3%.
- HR efficiency looks like it will be maintained at 40% at max current, while that seems low, there is ~18% more photons per par W emited than CXB spectrum, which sort of makes them relatively 47% efficient as far as photons are concerned (sorta)
- Better spread.


Soooooooo... The overall difference in photons is very small, but spectrum is improved quite a bit : with 4000Ks we get more lower blues, less dip after the blues and more 640-660.

Do we need it ?
Is it worth sacrificing a little bit quantity wise for quality ?
Anyone found a better source of deep/hyper red ?



EDIT :Maybe I should add some pictures to make this post more accessible Any good spectrum generator upto date these days ?

Maybe it would be even better with HLG 185H using as we can put more HR ..

5 cxb3070 BB @36W => 180W
8 Hyper red oslon => ~21.5W

2 HR between each CXB ..

...other options to suplementtation with osloms...

http://www.leds.de/en/LED-strips-modules-oxid-oxid-oxid/High-power-LED-strips/PowerBar-V2-LED-Leiste-Osram-hyper-red.html

https://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Power-LEDs-Osram/Osram-Modules/OSRAM-Oslon-SSL-80-red-array-LT-2016_206_209.html

https://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Power-LEDs-Osram/Osram-Modules/12-x-OSRAM-Oslon-SSL-80-red-on-round-pcb-LT-2034_206_209.html

https://www.led-tech.de/en/High-Power-LEDs-Osram/Osram-Modules/Grow-Modul-with-7x-OSRAM-SSL-80-LT-2499_206_209.html

...oslons have reds...deep reds and far reds too... and other colors...

...i know ...not match with your numbers... maybe offtopic... then...

e function ...desactived... thanks EF....



Saludos

thanks @salmonetin, i like the first link, but wonder what bin they are, if they're 2T, I'd rule them out.
3T is nice, a 4T source would rock, but it seems like they've been around for years, without being really available...


I'd love to be able to figure out how much of those HR to use,

It's possible to fill up HLG 185, or ELG 150 / HLG 120 drivers with 5%, 10%, 20%, 28% HyperReds, relative to total dissipation watts, wonder where the sweetspot is :/ I'd guess 20%

Anyone know a good spectrum tool to work this out visually ?

so which deep red performs best ?

cree photo red ?
osram hyper red ?
Philips luxeon red ?

personally I prefer starting with a warmer cob (3K) and supplementing with both deep red, royal blue and UVA. Royal blues will raise the overall efficiency significantly. (prefer not going through a phosphor layer to 450 nm light, when I can get them straight).

salmonetin said:

...osram oslons have red (625 nm)...deep red leds too (645 nm)... and "new" far red (730 nm)...

...osram hyper red?...PB are you refering... deep reds or far reds?...

...in led colors better refering to nm too ...for better general understanding....

,,,on far reds add ledengin leds at your question... just my pov...



Saludos

Click to expand...

I dunno what osram hyper red is, that's why I asked (saw the terms being thrown around). when I supplement cobs I'm only looking for 660nm deep red.
I use far red too but for the Pfr effect, since far red causes too much stretch if overbalanced in the spectrum.

so what is "- 3 x Osram oslon Hyper red " ???

PurpleBuz said:

I dunno what osram hyper red is, that's why I asked (saw the terms being thrown around). when I supplement cobs I'm only looking for 660nm deep red.
I use far red too but for the Pfr effect, since far red causes too much stretch if overbalanced in the spectrum.

Click to expand...

What do you use, and what are your results like? Compared to what too?

PurpleBuz said:

so which deep red performs best ?

cree photo red ?
osram hyper red ?
Philips luxeon red ?

personally I prefer starting with a warmer cob (3K) and supplementing with both deep red, royal blue and UVA. Royal blues will raise the overall efficiency significantly. (prefer not going through a phosphor layer to 450 nm light, when I can get them straight).

Click to expand...

They're very similar in performance.
I'm not sure whether top-bin Luxeon Rebels are available somewhere. I know that stevesleds.com offers them but I'm not sure if they're legit. I bought some a few years ago and they have strange voltage about 2.75V @700mA and I couldn't recognize spectrum difference when compared to 630nm Cree XP-E only that the Crees were noticeable brighter. I suspect that they were actually old and inefficient LXML-PD01 630nm reds.
Some other LEDs on that site strike me with too-good-to-be-true specs as well.

3T bin Oslons and 14 bin XP-Es are available. The performance is very similar so I'd choose the one I could get cheaper.

Greengenes707 said:

What do you use, and what are your results like? Compared to what too?

Click to expand...

I'm currently using cree photo reds and the phillips luxeon es deep reds (from rapidled) can't really tell the difference. don't have a par meter yet.
I started using cree photo reds instead of the luxeons because it has a higher max voltage (1000ma), which lets me put on same string with cobs running at 1000ma.

Unfortunately I don't really have good side by side comparisons, but I do like the way they are flowering with the cree photoreds

@PurpleBuz hyper red is just what osram call deep red ..

47% efficiency @350mA, 40%@1000mA

They have a tighter beam angle of 80°, and can run upto 1000mA , which i beleive the luxeons can't. Didn't check the latest cree's as I never liked their beam angles on monos ...

EfficientWatt said:

@PurpleBuz hyper red is just what osram call deep red ..

47% efficiency @350mA, 40%@1000mA

They have a tighter beam angle of 80°, and can run upto 1000mA , which i beleive the luxeons can't. Didn't check the latest cree's as I never liked their beam angles on monos ...

Click to expand...

thanks for the info, seems like a good option to the cree photo reds. 80 degrees is interesting, 130 degrees for cree photo reds.

I think I'm sick

I've been dreaming of COB/HR ratios, and woke up with this in mind :

ELG 150-c700
5 CXB3070 @700mA and 23.5W each = 117.5W
20 HR @ 700mA = 33.2W

Should I go see the doctor .. ? I think I'll just roll me a

5xCree 3070 BD /4000K plus 20xOslon CP7P T3T4 both @ 700mA Tj 60°C


efficiency and other numbers for the Oslon Hyper Red

Thanks guod, looks like that's a little heavy on the red side ..

Can I ask what you used to get this nice spd ?

Is there a way to have that chart in relative ppf, instead of par w ?

guod said:

5xCree 3070 BD /4000K plus 20xOslon CP7P T3T4 both @ 700mA Tj 60°C

View attachment 3492224
efficiency and other numbers for the Oslon Hyper Red

View attachment 3492230

Click to expand...

Wouldn't making an efficient 90+CRI light give you the reds you want?

nevergoodenuf said:

Wouldn't making an efficient 90+CRI light give you the reds you want?

Click to expand...

insufficient data, how would you make an efficient 90+CRI light ?

I might try 4 Vero 29 3500k 90CRIs on a CEN100-36. Give me a couple weeks to get this started.

Ok,

So after messing with some spectrum tools, it seems clear that @700ma 2-3 Oslon deepred/HR per CXB @~49W is all we need.

I like that the oslons HR have a wide nm range, but it's centered around 655, a little higher up between 660-665 would of been awesome.

Now the ~425nm got my attention ; never looked at lower blues but it looks like it could use a little kick too, anyone know the best monos for that region ?

This will never end

EDIT : Ok sor lower blues is more commonly called violet !
.... found a semiled at 37% efficiency .. still searching ...

nevergoodenuf said:

I might try 4 Vero 29 3500k 90CRIs on a CEN100-36. Give me a couple weeks to get this started.

Click to expand...

most of the high cri cobs lose significant efficiency compared to their regular cri counterparts. I prefer supplementing with monos to fatten the spectrum since the monos also increase efficiency.

PurpleBuz said:

most of the high cri cobs lose significant efficiency compared to their regular cri counterparts. I prefer supplementing with monos to fatten the spectrum since the monos also increase efficiency.

Click to expand...

agreed on high cri, and jusing monos, but they will usually end up bringing efficiency of the light source down.
... the violet i'm looking at now is ~21% "efficient" .. The deep red / HR i'm planning to add are "only" 40-47% efficient in usuable range ... and they are within the best deep reds ...

most monos, seem to be less efficient than underun CXB's ..