I'm Looking To Upgrade My Lighting, But Should I Upgrade It?

Hello everyone, I'm a long time lurker but a first time poster.. I have gained a wealth of knowledge from this forum, but I have a couple questions and I would like some opinions from people who have more experience than myself.. Here's my situation, I'm using a small cabinet 2'x2'x3' to flower one plant at a time.. I've been running 8 23W CFLs, 6 2700k and two 6500k.. I hang the 2 6500k above the plant, and then I just kind of spread the other 6 out around the plant.. Honestly I'm more than happy with the results I've been getting, but I'm kind of wondering if I could get better results if I used a different lighting system.. Unfortunately, I live in an apartment and my lease says specifically that I'm not suppose to be growing.. So upgrading my grow space is not an option for me.. I have tons of airflow and a great exhaust system in my cabinet so heat is not really an issue, my big problem is head room.. My plants have been finishing at about 30" tall including the pot, so I basically have 6" for a light.. My understanding is that if I place an led that close to my plant it will light bleach it, and if I place an hps that close it will burn it.. I've been averaging almost 3/4g per watt, is there a light source available to me that could improve upon that? I'd appreciate any insight anyone cares to give me..
 
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hiitsbob

Well-Known Member
i ran in the same size room my first few grow except mine was 4 foot tall. could get a shorter wider container to give you more vertical room. i started with cfl's wish i bought a hid sooner than i did. reason for this is the penetration of the hid is much more valuable in my opinion and easier than messing with 8 separate bulbs. could possibly get a dimmable 600w and run it on 300w or just go with a 250w hid. i have never used led but thought the plants grew up to within a few inches of led after they stretch? hope this helps a bit.
 
i ran in the same size room my first few grow except mine was 4 foot tall. could get a shorter wider container to give you more vertical room. i started with cfl's wish i bought a hid sooner than i did. reason for this is the penetration of the hid is much more valuable in my opinion and easier than messing with 8 separate bulbs. could possibly get a dimmable 600w and run it on 300w or just go with a 250w hid. i have never used led but thought the plants grew up to within a few inches of led after they stretch? hope this helps a bit.
I've been thinking about building a planter like box that would fit into the base of my cabinet perfectly, but I'm unsure how deep I should make it.. The container I've been using is a 3gal plastic flower pot and it's probably 12" tall.. If I made my box 6" deep I could gain 6" of head room, but would 6" deep be sufficient for my roots, and would 1' be enough head room to hang a 600w or even a 400w hid? I figure the fixture it's self is at least 12" thick, that would put the light at the same level as the tops of my plant.. I've looked at several leds and they all recommend keeping the light 16" above the plant due to risk of light bleaching.. I dunno maybe I'm looking at the wrong kinds of leds, I'll have to due some more research.. Over all the CFLs do their job but your right they don't penetrate worth a damn.. You have to keep the lights so close and moving them every day gets old quick..
 
Here are some pictures of the plant I have in my cabinet now.. The strain is God Bud from BC Bud Depot.. I'm growing her in an organic living soil that contains peat moss, composted chicken manure, composted ground fruit from an orchard, myc fungi, and a few other goodies.. She popped above the dirt on Jan 20th, and she's been on a 12/12 light cycle from the get go.. I'm using a modified version of mainlining to keep her as low as possible.. I topped her 3 times but I removed 2 tops, so she has 6 tops total.. She showed me her sex about three weeks ago and I estimate her to be in her 2nd week of flowering.. Bud sites are starting to form and she is slowing down on her stretch.. I just gave her a good lollipoping and I'm going to let her dry out for a week before giving her any more water..
topview.jpg
sideview1.jpg
budsite1.jpg
 
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hiitsbob

Well-Known Member
just have to figure out what works for you. maybe cfl's are the way to go. optimal distance for a 250w would be about 8-12 inches from plants. in such a small grow room may be able to bare bulb it and get rid of the size of the reflector. just my 2 cents good luck.
 
just have to figure out what works for you. maybe cfl's are the way to go. optimal distance for a 250w would be about 8-12 inches from plants. in such a small grow room may be able to bare bulb it and get rid of the size of the reflector. just my 2 cents good luck.
Never thought about just bare bulbing it, but that could possibly work.. I could throw in a few CFLs also to mix up the light spectrum up a bit.. I think I might try that.. Is there a brand of ballast that's better than the others, or all 250w ballast basically the same?
 

hiitsbob

Well-Known Member
this is my opinion and they can vary widely. i bought an apollo 600w dimmable for a 2x4x5 grow room and run it at 75% or 450w. some may say its inefficient it seems to work for me. can run it on 50% or 300w then still have a nice light in case you do ever up the size of your room. like i said my opinion. this is what i bought seems like a good price for what you get.
http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Horticulture-GLK600CT24E-Digital-Dimmable/dp/B00521B894/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1425377030&sr=8-9&keywords=apollo+horticulture+grow+light
 

Tim Fox

Well-Known Member
I would go with a LED, but a self built with vero cobs , store bought u led lights would need more clearance than u. Have room height, a 600 watt hps in your box will turn it into an easy bake oven, loll, using some smaller vero cobs will make your little box rock, ask your same question over in the led section on this web site, the LED guys will set u right up with a simple to build light set up that will keep u cool, and max your yield, while lower temps, I will also steer a guy I know here and, he is very wise in the ways of small cabs with LED
 
this is my opinion and they can vary widely. i bought an apollo 600w dimmable for a 2x4x5 grow room and run it at 75% or 450w. some may say its inefficient it seems to work for me. can run it on 50% or 300w then still have a nice light in case you do ever up the size of your room. like i said my opinion. this is what i bought seems like a good price for what you get.
http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Horticulture-GLK600CT24E-Digital-Dimmable/dp/B00521B894/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1425377030&sr=8-9&keywords=apollo horticulture grow light
I was actually looking at the same light on amazon last night.. I think it could potentially work in my cabinet if I upgrade my exhaust system.. My understanding is with the cool tubes that the plants can actually touch the fixture with no Ill effects as long as the exhaust is on.. Thanks for your help man..

I would go with a LED, but a self built with vero cobs , store bought u led lights would need more clearance than u. Have room height, a 600 watt hps in your box will turn it into an easy bake oven, loll, using some smaller vero cobs will make your little box rock, ask your same question over in the led section on this web site, the LED guys will set u right up with a simple to build light set up that will keep u cool, and max your yield, while lower temps, I will also steer a guy I know here and, he is very wise in the ways of small cabs with LED
I've been reading some of the DIY post in the led section, I don't understand all the technical details about the most of the lighting they've been building in there.. With a little guidance though I'm confident that I could pull off a small less complex build.. Thanks for your help, I think I'll go make a post in the led thread..
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
3 feet of height?

Concerning all your light choices, the advantage of leds especially DIY is Efficiency and reduced heating, being the two biggest....

I like to aim for 4-10 watts of 5k in Veg and even less for cloning.....and a minimum of 25 watts /per sq ft BUT no more than 35-40 watts of sq. ft.... OR more recently, I like to average about 12-15 PAR watts/ per sq. ft


You could easily build a light with 3x BridgeluxVero 29 3000K Cob's driven at around an 1050mA for each LED, giving you about 110 watts overall [37 watts apiece], but with 42% efficiency you will have have 47 PAR watts and 53 watts of heat, not bad...considering CFL's are around 10-15% efficient and the best HID bare bulb might start at 30% but within a single run it will be lower than that.....

This will give you coverage and penetration and people have reported distances as little as 6" with these Vero's....bleaching usually isn't a problem....terrible lenses on cheap diodes causing bleaching for oversaturation in one point on a leaf [not uniform distribution] is mainly the culprit of the cheap commercial bullshit craze.....

This part list is about 90% of the entire build: the 10% being connectors and other stoof you can find at a local hardware store.....

-Bridgelux Vero 29 3K
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?s=44064&FV=fff40008,fff80354,fffc03d0&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
-Ac/DC driver....Really liking these Meanwell LPC 150's....you could even add a 4th led, in the future if you need to upgrade as the driver has extra voltage.....
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/LPC-150-1050/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMt5PRBMPTWcaY9Bjg3OKYMl4a1KQUeo4f%2bkUmZ/dJBugw==
Alpine Arctic 11+ Cpu Cooler [one for each cob]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186070
Prolimatech PK3 Paste or Arctic Paste is fine too.....used for applying between bottom of LED and top of heatsink, where they join...
http://www.prolimatech.com/en/products/detail.asp?id=1582&subid=1585#showtab

5v Fan Power Supply -use to supply power to fans for Heatsinks.....
Wago Connectors 224-412,413,415
2 Amp Blade Fuse [between driver and First Cob in a series]
Molex Wire Adaptors Vero [one for each cob]
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0688014146/WM9591-ND/3880991

:joint:
 
3 feet of height?

Concerning all your light choices, the advantage of leds especially DIY is Efficiency and reduced heating, being the two biggest....

I like to aim for 4-10 watts of 5k in Veg and even less for cloning.....and a minimum of 25 watts /per sq ft BUT no more than 35-40 watts of sq. ft.... OR more recently, I like to average about 12-15 PAR watts/ per sq. ft


You could easily build a light with 3x BridgeluxVero 29 3000K Cob's driven at around an 1050mA for each LED, giving you about 110 watts overall [37 watts apiece], but with 42% efficiency you will have have 47 PAR watts and 53 watts of heat, not bad...considering CFL's are around 10-15% efficient and the best HID bare bulb might start at 30% but within a single run it will be lower than that.....

This will give you coverage and penetration and people have reported distances as little as 6" with these Vero's....bleaching usually isn't a problem....terrible lenses on cheap diodes causing bleaching for oversaturation in one point on a leaf [not uniform distribution] is mainly the culprit of the cheap commercial bullshit craze.....
Wow, thank you very much for the input and parts list, I really appreciate it.. For basically the same money it would cost me to upgrade to hid lighting, I could put together this cob setup and have a light that is brighter, uses less power, and runs cooler.. I think that's pretty much a no brainer.. How far apart do you recommend I mount the cob's? Would I be better off getting one large heat sink or three smaller heat sinks?
 

Tim Fox

Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you very much for the input and parts list, I really appreciate it.. For basically the same money it would cost me to upgrade to hid lighting, I could put together this cob setup and have a light that is brighter, uses less power, and runs cooler.. I think that's pretty much a no brainer.. How far apart do you recommend I mount the cob's? Would I be better off getting one large heat sink or three smaller heat sinks?
I prefer the seperate heat sinks myself, gives you freedom to turn fewer on during early veg, and to move them around if needed , even seperate hieghts within the grow box if you get cola's that are differant heights ,, my 2 cents,
Thanks so much to Abiqua for helping out, such wisdom in the led set up,
 
Ya Dude, that led set up will ROck your Box !!
I know man, I'm getting excited about it.. I've been reading reading post in the led threads for the last 3 hours.. As soon as I get my tax refund I'm gonna order the parts to build it.. I'll be able to pack my cabinet full of ladies and not have to mess with moving lights around at all.. I can't wait to see how many tops I can cram into 4 sq feet lol..
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you very much for the input and parts list, I really appreciate it.. For basically the same money it would cost me to upgrade to hid lighting, I could put together this cob setup and have a light that is brighter, uses less power, and runs cooler.. I think that's pretty much a no brainer.. How far apart do you recommend I mount the cob's? Would I be better off getting one large heat sink or three smaller heat sinks?
With the V29's, probably just equidistant from each other relative to your space.....educated guess really...and farting around, I will run three in a similar size space, but 4 might be better too, just ran at a lower current like .7 amps, which would still be around 100w's, but because of the efficiency running at the lower current, you will still hover around 44-50 Par Watts....

and....
Also this option ++++....even just two Vero 29's or Cree CXA3070's, ran @ 1.4 amps each, produced about 108 watts....similar power, slightly lower efficiency....Cheaper cost!

Choices Choices.....



Heatsinks

I tend to lean towards individual heatsinks....The Arctic is $10 shipped for a sink and a fan.....Great deal....they will also handle over a 100w's apiece if you really wanted to go that route [although I would recommend some thermal safety shut-offs, at that point]

Going with a bigger heatsink has it advantages, because it could be used actively, semi-actively or passively and makes a great mount for other things like drivers if really needed....[small positive]

A passive setup don't require fans, so that helps power savings, even if small....

cons are probably cost being the most and just having to assemble the active setup,


Heatsinkusa.com
HeatsinkUSA.png
Rule of thumb when sizing heatsinks.....

Active [w/ fan] 25 cm2 per 1 watt of power....
Passive 75 cm2 per 1 watt

So take the 1st length example on the above thumbnail....

2. 03" width = 84.43 cm2 /per inch......That is 3 watts active cooling / 1 watt passive....

If we wanted 20 watts, we would need either 7 inches for active [21 inches] or 20 inches for passive.....and so on...

I like the 4.6", the 5,88" and if you can afford them, the 8" 10" and 12"s are pretty good too....

Heatsinks don't need much cooling to keep the Tc [junction temperature] at reasonable temp [25c]


:peace:
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
With the V29's, probably just equidistant from each other relative to your space.....educated guess really...and farting around, I will run three in a similar size space, but 4 might be better too, just ran at a lower current like .7 amps, which would still be around 100w's, but because of the efficiency running at the lower current, you will still hover around 44-50 Par Watts....
:peace:
I like the idea of running the 4 cobs at a lower amperage.. That would allow me to hang two in the front of the cab and two in the back of the cab.. So basically I just mount the cobs to a heat sink, then wire them to the driver in a series.. Then I plug the fans into the power supply, plug the power supply and the driver into a surge protector, plug the surge protector into the timer, plug the timer into the wall, say let there be light and switch the power on, correct?
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Last little thought....ramble ramble

I keep recommending the Alpines and they are great heatsink but due to the holder of the Vero 29, they slightly overhang when mounted to this cob....

The arctic craze got started with mounting the Cree CXA 3070's which are slight different form, so they fit....

I use these little Glacial techs for my Vero's...they are about half the weight of the Arcticss [180 grams vs. 370] but are cheaper, have a flat surface that easily mounts the Vero's but the kicker is they are probably only good for up to 60 watts or so....but I run mine @ 500mA for ultimate efficiency....so about 20 watts

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GlacialTech-Igloo-7223-E-CPU-Fan-with-Heatsink-Sockets-754-939-940-AM2-F/121566468435?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20140602152332&meid=33e009fb43d14a2fbf35226db1d435f0&pid=100011&rk=1&rkt=5&sd=111055395300

Example:
P1130551.JPG
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
I like the idea of running the 4 cobs at a lower amperage.. That would allow me to hang two in the front of the cab and two in the back of the cab.. So basically I just mount the cobs to a heat sink, then wire them to the driver in a series.. Then I plug the fans into the power supply, plug the power supply and the driver into a surge protector, plug the surge protector into the timer, plug the timer into the wall, say let there be light and switch the power on, correct?
Yep, also remember that you have to mount your LED's to the heatsink, either by tapping and drilling holes....or with Vero's you also mount with Kapton Tape....SupraSpl has tested this method north of 100w's...

There is a Tapping and Drilling thread started by @AquariusPanta , that goes over most of the basics for mounting....:peace:
 

AquariusPanta

Well-Known Member
Yep, also remember that you have to mount your LED's to the heatsink, either by tapping and drilling holes....or with Vero's you also mount with Kapton Tape....SupraSpl has tested this method north of 100w's...

There is a Tapping and Drilling thread started by @AquariusPanta , that goes over most of the basics for mounting....:peace:
What would we do without you, Abiqua? :mrgreen:

Here is the thread I made recently on tapping.
 
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