giving defoliation during flower a try

unwine99 said:

If you top a million times like I do, lollipopping is necessary because there is no light reaching the bottom branches. If I decide to top only 1 or 2 times and the plant is more open, I don't lollipop because I have sufficient light penetration to the bottom. If a node or branch is shadowed, the quality takes a hit so I avoid it. My plants have 0 larf -- I hate larf -- I won't tolerate larf. Not now, not ever.

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You know what's so funny. Is I gre a huge pk ripper clone all natural huge fan leaves. Never once trimmed her. I find that the more leaves the bigger buds. Flowers and tech degrades with that intense light I thought. But I always figured more leaves even if covering buds was better again maybe I'm wrong. This girl og something from 5 year old seeds given to me

Deusracing said:

You know what's so funny. Is I gre a huge pk ripper clone all natural huge fan leaves. Never once trimmed her. I find that the more leaves the bigger buds. Flowers and tech degrades with that intense light I thought. But I always figured more leaves even if covering buds was better again maybe I'm wrong. This girl og something from 5 year old seeds given to me
View attachment 3317804

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Nice buds man, and ya I agree, if I have light hitting a fan leaf I leave it even if it is covering a bud because I know it's providing nourishment. A lot of people say tuck the leaves -- I do the exact opposite -- If I have a leaf being suppressed by a branch I pull the leaf out to receive more light. I know a fan leaf has more surface area and can soak up way more light than bud leaves.

unwine99 said:

Nice buds man, and ya I agree, if I have light hitting a fan leaf I leave it even if it is covering a bud because I know it's providing nourishment. A lot of people say tuck the leaves -- I do the exact opposite -- If I have a leaf being suppressed by a branch I pull the leaf out to receive more light. I know a fan leaf has more surface area and can soak up way more light than bud leaves.

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EXACTLY biology 101 photosynthesis has to work.. too much light and heat kills any flowers i thought but hey I've been only growing since jan1 2014 but put in at least 1000 hours of reading

unwine99 said:

Nice buds man, and ya I agree, if I have light hitting a fan leaf I leave it even if it is covering a bud because I know it's providing nourishment. A lot of people say tuck the leaves -- I do the exact opposite -- If I have a leaf being suppressed by a branch I pull the leaf out to receive more light. I know a fan leaf has more surface area and can soak up way more light than bud leaves.

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http://rollitup.org/t/rocket-plasma-grow.824466/page-10#post-10913126 again since jan1 i started lol guess i got a lil overboard LMAO

Deusracing said:

EXACTLY biology 101 photosynthesis has to work.. too much light and heat kills any flowers i thought but hey I've been only growing since jan1 2014 but put in at least 1000 hours of reading

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Hey, that's a hell of a good place to start and it looks like you're off and running. I know heat can wreak havoc but as far as too much light, and I'm speaking from my experience only, the only time Ive seen properly watered plants susceptible to too much light is with unrooted and/or immature clones. I've seen plants grow right up and touch the glass of 1000 watt fixtures that were properly vented with no problems. I know guys that pop seedlings under 1000 watts no biggie and likewise I see outdoor plants thrive in full sun when they're watered properly. Idk, I'm sure such a thing exists, I just haven't been witness to it.

Deusracing said:

http://rollitup.org/t/rocket-plasma-grow.824466/page-10#post-10913126 again since jan1 i started lol guess i got a lil overboard LMAO

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Nice setup man -- dig the veggies too.

unwine99 said:

If you top a million times like I do, lollipopping is necessary because there is no light reaching the bottom branches. If I decide to top only 1 or 2 times and the plant is more open, I don't lollipop because I have sufficient light penetration to the bottom. If a node or branch is shadowed, the quality takes a hit so I avoid it. My plants have 0 larf -- I hate larf -- I won't tolerate larf. Not now, not ever.

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I showed you that light reaching the lower part is not the issue but you guys still insist.

Uncle Ben said:

I showed you that light reaching the lower part is not the issue but you morons still insist.

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Larf and popcorn are not synonymous to me. I understand cannabis plants all have popcorn. I love popcorn if it's nice and dense, but I hate larf. Larf is airy and unpleasant. I've had entire top colas that were larfy because they hung outside the main footprint of the light.

I think pruning is a better term for what I do. I don't "defoliate". I don't tuck leaves. I do lollipop because it suits my style of growing and I've found that it does increase my yield as well as eliminate the larf that I loathe. Maybe it's coincidence that every Larfy bud I've ever had was shaded from direct light, IDK.

Larf? Larf is good. Larf make CO2 oil. Oil make $$$. $$$ make us happy. Why throw away $$$? Every larfy bud we've ever produced has returned cash, moola, dead presidents, buckaroonies. We like larf.

Knott Collective said:

Larf? Larf is good. Larf make CO2 oil. Oil make $$$. $$$ make us happy. Why throw away $$$? Every larfy bud we've ever produced has returned cash, moola, dead presidents, buckaroonies. We like larf.

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Good for you man, i don't take anything away from ya but I don't grow for money and any hash or extract that I make is from trimmed sugar leaves that I collect during the course of 2-3 runs. Plus, not pruning it decreases my bud yield. I don't like that. I hate larf. Larf is not my friend.

Sativied said:

He removed lower leaves AND branches to burry it deeper. You're basically saying pruning part of a plant, like topping, is the same thing as defoliation because it also involves removing leaves. Getting upset over a moot defoliation point like that seems almost out of character for you, so whatever it is that really fucked up your week, I hope you'll be back.

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Not only will some of these people not accept knowledge, they can't think straight. They tend to miss the issue, the context of what's being written. Even when you explain some seem incapable of processing the info presented even WITH photos!

For the others who have the ability to learn a few concepts, that photo reflects several things going on, & tweeks.

1. Yes, the plant was buried deep to induce more root output which happened big time. That is not considered defoliation in the same context as what the butchers do. I even went so far as to water blast the top 1/2" of soil off the rootball to show an extremely fibrous (and effective) root system, to share what's going on.

2. The plant received full sun sunrise to sunset from the top to the very bottom of the pot. The lower part of the plant still has popcorn buds.....which flies into the face of every clown here who believes it's the lack of light that induces popcorn buds below the colas....at lower levels.

BEFORE:



AFTER soil was washed off rootball:



One of my farm friends, eyeing some popcorn. Notice brown pistils on some of the popcorn.



UB

Uncle Ben said:

Not only will some of these people not accept knowledge, they can't think straight, tend to miss the issue, the context of what's being written. Even when you explain trying to focus their thought pattern, some seem incapable of processing the info presented even WITH photos!

For the others who have the ability to learn a few concepts, that photo reflects several things going on, & tweeks.

1. Yes, the plant was buried deep to induce more root output which happened big time. I even went so far as to water blast the top 1/2" of soil off the rootball to expose the extremely fibrous (and effective) root system.

2. The plant received full sun sunrise to sunset from the top to the very bottom of the pot. The lower part of the plant still has popcorn buds.....which flies into the face of every clown here who believes it's the lack of light that induces popcorn buds below the colas....at lower levels.

BEFORE:

View attachment 3318262

AFTER soil was washed off rootball:

View attachment 3318263

One of my farm friends, eyeing some popcorn:

View attachment 3318265

UB

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Do you have a picture from before you chopped it -- that would be interesting. Beautiful praying mantis btw. And I understand what you're saying. I really do. But light penetration has everything to do with larf -- not popcorn -- nasty airy larf.

It's well documented that fruit tree orchards prune their trees to strengthen fruiting branches, increase air circulation, and yes, increase light penetration. It's also documented that light penetration increases bud and flower formation as well as fruit maturity -- and a dense canopy decreases all those things on lower branches where light isn't penetrating as well.

Not all pruning is bad. It's quite the opposite. Judicious pruning can significantly improve yield, quality, and the overall health of your plant.

unwine99 said:

Do you have a picture from before you chopped it -- that would be interesting. Beautiful praying mantis btw. And I understand what you're saying. I really do. But light penetration has everything to do with larf -- not popcorn -- nasty airy larf.

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Not sure how you're defining larf. Do you mean airy buds located from mid point and up? 99% of the people here would describe a sativa as larf I guess as in this Haze.

It's well documented that fruit tree orchards prune their trees to strengthen fruiting branches, increase air circulation, and yes, increase light penetration. It's also documented that light penetration increases bud and flower formation as well as fruit maturity -- and a dense canopy decreases all those things on lower branches where light isn't penetrating as well.

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Out of context. Fruit tree and vineyard managers train and prune in order to improve the market quality of their fruit, size and color, and to control harvest management reason why dwarfing rootstocks are so popular. As a buyer you're not inclined to buy a puny looking peach with poor color. Same with wine grapes, a certain amount of sunlight destroys a chemical which imparts herbaceuness to the wine.

Not all pruning is bad. It's quite the opposite. Judicious pruning can significantly improve yield, quality, and the overall health of your plant.

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Not if it reduces overall plant photosynthesis.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

Not sure how you're defining larf. Do you mean airy buds located from mid point and up? 99% of the people here would describe a sativa as larf I guess as in this Haze.

View attachment 3318276



Out of context. Fruit tree and vineyard managers train and prune in order to improve the market quality of their fruit, size and color, and to control harvest management reason why dwarfing rootstocks are so popular. As a buyer you're not inclined to buy a puny looking peach with poor color. Same with wine grapes, a certain amount of sunlight destroys a chemical which imparts herbaceuness to the wine.



Not if it reduces overall plant photosynthesis.

UB

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No, larf as in something that is anomalous to a particular strains full quality potential due to lack of direct light to the area. Any strain can be effected at any level on the plant -- top, bottom or in the middle.

As for orchard pruning, I'm sure there are dozens of reasons for pruning and thank you for listing some -- that's very interesting. But I also know that orchard trees are pruned to increase light penetration and thus increase flower and bud formation, as well as fruit maturity -- which is well within the context of our topic.

Hence, the judicious part. I don't know if I'm reducing overall plant photosynthesis by selective pruning and lollipopping but I can say for sure that after I lollipop, my plants are happy and healthy and I see an increase in growth to the top -- which is where I want it.

At one point in time of my grow, I ran about 300 watts of lighting that blasted the bottom halves of some of my plants so I wouldn't have popcorn buds.

Guess what.....there were as many popcorn buds on those plants as there were on the plants that had no under-side lighting.

Once again I had to tell Uncle Ben he was right.....as always.

Thanks Roach, and Merry Christmas to you and yours!

At one point in time of my grow, I ran about 300 watts of lighting that blasted the bottom halves of some of my plants so I wouldn't have popcorn buds.

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Live and learn

unwine99 said:

As for orchard pruning, I'm sure there are dozens of reasons for pruning and thank you for listing some -- that's very interesting. But I also know that orchard trees are pruned to increase light penetration and thus increase flower and bud formation, as well as fruit maturity -- which is well within the context of our topic.

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Do you grow fruits and grapes? I grow both and you're right, the protocol is to open up the canopy to light and air, to train/prune the perennial into a vase like profile. Doesn't really increase flower or fruit formation though. That is more variety dependent and must be chosen based on average annual chill hours. Plus much of the training and annual pruning is done to keep the harvest zone within arm's reach. Harvesting at 16' is labor intensive, expensive.

Hence, the judicious part. I don't know if I'm reducing overall plant photosynthesis by selective pruning and lollipopping but I can say for sure that after I lollipop, my plants are happy and healthy and I see an increase in growth to the top -- which is where I want it.

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Whatever floats your boat.

I worked on fruit farms for years, and did indeed prune apple and peach trees....not to give more light at the bottom, but just as UB stated, to increase the fruit size (not yield, but the size of the fruit). I suspect that the pruning I did actually lowered the total weight of the yield per tree, but gave more appealing apples and peaches.

lilroach said:

I worked on fruit farms for years, and did indeed prune apple and peach trees....not to give more light at the bottom, but just as UB stated, to increase the fruit size (not yield, but the size of the fruit). I suspect that the pruning I did actually lowered the total weight of the yield per tree, but gave more appealing apples and peaches.

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I live in the heart of peach country. Most growers remove at least 40% of the crop at pea size in order to increase size and improve visual quality. Everyone loves those big, red peaches. I don't drop fruit on my peach trees, the ultra high spring winds does it for me. I do drop some or all grape clusters on some vines just after flower set in order to balance the fruit load with the canopy - health and vigor of the vine. If the vine is struggling, all fruit is dropped.

Uncle Ben said:

I live in the heart of peach country. Most growers remove at least 40% of the crop at pea size in order to increase size and improve visual quality. Everyone loves those big, red peaches. I don't drop fruit on my peach trees, the ultra high spring winds does it for me. I do drop some or all grape clusters on some vines just after flower set in order to balance the fruit load with the canopy - health and vigor of the vine. If the vine is struggling, all fruit is dropped.

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"Proper tree training also opens up the tree canopy to maximize light penetration. Light penetration is essential for strong flower bud development and optimal fruit set, flavor, and quality. Although a mature tree may be growing in full sun, a very dense canopy may not allow adequate light to reach 12-18 inside the canopy"

"Shaded branches eventually stop fruiting and will never produce without drastic topping and renewal of the entire tree"

-- North Carolina State University

"Pruning of fruit trees improves light penetration into the canopy, and light is required for flower-bud development, fruit set and growth, and red color development."

Virginia State University

"The fruit tree will get larger over time (perhaps 30 feet or more in some species) and upper leafy branches will shade the lower parts of the tree. Shade will inhibit formation of fruiting wood (that is, flowering production), and therefore fruit production. Pruning will lower the tree's height, and allow sunlight to penetrate down into the tree' slower branches, promoting lower-height fruit production."

-- Dr. Mark S. Brunell -- University of California


I respect you guys but the literature is everywhere.


But here is the more important, overall point:

To all the gardeners who prune/lollipop -- have fun and do what works best for you.
To all the gardeners who don't prune/lollipop -- have fun and do what works best for you.

Those are fruiting perennials, not an annual with a 12 week life. Each type of fruit tree is different regarding the best management. IOW, you don't prune or train a mango or avocado the same way you would a pome fruit.

I have plenty of fruit shaded within the canopy of my peach trees and grapevines. They get filtered sun, perhaps 10%. Again, do you have any real world experience?