Dr. Elaine Ingham vs Tim Wilson on molasses

MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Ok, So ive read what they both have to say on the use of molasses. Tim(www.microbeorganics.com) having done plenty of his own research using different brews etc. and checking with his microscope and noticing (by his claim) that the molasses actually feeds the fungi just as much as the bacteria. Dr. Elaine(www.soilfoodweb.com) and her understudy(www.thesoilguy.com) claiming that it mainly just feeds bacteria and not so much fungi. I find it hard to believe that after Dr. Elaine Ingham having been doing research in labs across the world for 20+ years has got it wrong, yet Tim seems to have found through his own research that it does actually feed both equally. Have these two ever had a debate over this that I can read somewhere??? And what is everyone's thoughts on this?
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
Ok, So ive read what they both have to say on the use of molasses. Tim(www.microbeorganics.com) having done plenty of his own research using different brews etc. and checking with his microscope and noticing (by his claim) that the molasses actually feeds the fungi just as much as the bacteria. Dr. Elaine(www.soilfoodweb.com) and her understudy(www.thesoilguy.com) claiming that it mainly just feeds bacteria and not so much fungi. I find it hard to believe that after Dr. Elaine Ingham having been doing research in labs across the world for 20+ years has got it wrong, yet Tim seems to have found through his own research that it does actually feed both equally. Have these two ever had a debate over this that I can read somewhere??? And what is everyone's thoughts on this?
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a. I would take a real look at Elaine's background lol b. do we really care about bacterial dominant vs fungal dominant? I think this will more so be dictated by the plant and c. if you have rocking soil, are teas really necessary?

P-
 
GrowerGoneWild

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
Tim seems to have found through his own research that it does actually feed both equally. Have these two ever had a debate over this that I can read somewhere??? And what is everyone's thoughts on this?
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Mebby, I somewhat agree with Dr. Elaine, ive spent alot of time with some of our favorite fungal friends, sacromyces and psylocybin. Anyways they both grow better with carbohydrates, vs simple sugars. You can "start" either one in sugar solutions however they perform best with carbohydates like grains.

Mebby molasses starts fungal and bacterial activity.. but is not a preferred food for fungus.

Anyways interesting stuff.. I'm reading up on microbes Jeff Lowenfels and Dr. Elaines work this weekend.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
GrowerGoneWild said:
Mebby, I somewhat agree with Dr. Elaine, ive spent alot of time with some of our favorite fungal friends, sacromyces and psylocybin. Anyways they both grow better with carbohydrates, vs simple sugars. You can "start" either one in sugar solutions however they perform best with carbohydates like grains.

Mebby molasses starts fungal and bacterial activity.. but is not a preferred food for fungus.

Anyways interesting stuff.. I'm reading up on microbes Jeff Lowenfels and Dr. Elaines work this weekend.
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You're talking about growing shrooms right? Those take weeks to grow, so I don't think that's a good comparison to a 36 hour tea. A sugar is a simple carbohydrate. It is ideal for a tea because it does not need to be broken down to be utilized by the microbes.

I trust Tim's opinion on this. I have been using his simple tea recipe for quite some time and my plants always respond favorably to it.
 
GrowerGoneWild

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
You're talking about growing shrooms right? Those take weeks to grow, so I don't think that's a good comparison to a 36 hour tea. A sugar is a simple carbohydrate. It is ideal for a tea because it does not need to be broken down to be utilized by the microbes.

I trust Tim's opinion on this. I have been using his simple tea recipe for quite some time and my plants always respond favorably to it.
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I think you missed the point... The simple sugars in molasses are good to start a culture, but they are not the correct food for fungi and bacteria over the long run.

I see her point.. molasses might be over feeding everything or might be unecessary. I've brewed teas with no molasses and had good results.
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
a. I would take a real look at Elaine's background lol b. do we really care about bacterial dominant vs fungal dominant? I think this will more so be dictated by the plant and c. if you have rocking soil, are teas really necessary?

P-
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I will do some more research on her background for sure. I imagine that the bacterial dominant vs fungal dominant would be an important thing to know because each and every type of plant is going to thrive more in a different ratio of bacteria:fungi. May not make a huge difference if like you said your soil is rocking, but would be cool to know what type of ratio cannabis prefers. Ive been using teas because its a simple and efficient way to inoculate your soil with life, especially if using store bought soil(I use roots 707), (I don't have anywhere to make compost or mix soil do to lack of space, no yard). Now that I just said that im gonna say fuck it and start mixing soil in my living room lol. Using just Great White Mycorrhizae, and compost tea with Roots 707 soil im entering week 4 and just now having to start adding nutes. Obviously I would like to make my soil and have it provide for my ladies until harvest, but im happy with making it to week 4 of flower and I still have plenty of roots nutes to use.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
GrowerGoneWild said:
I think you missed the point... The simple sugars in molasses are good to start a culture, but they are not the correct food for fungi and bacteria over the long run.

I see her point.. molasses might be over feeding everything or might be unecessary. I've brewed teas with no molasses and had good results.
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But the fungi are only in the tea for 24-36 hours. We're not worried about "the long run".... only the duration of the brew
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
GrowerGoneWild said:
I think you missed the point... The simple sugars in molasses are good to start a culture, but they are not the correct food for fungi and bacteria over the long run.

I see her point.. molasses might be over feeding everything or might be unecessary. I've brewed teas with no molasses and had good results.
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That's what I was told by quite a few people I know that have been working with teas for years. They all said when you used molasses in your tea and you check it with your microscope when its ready the microbes are not nearly as active as when molasses is left out. Also leading the microbes to get to work faster in your soil when you water it in since they aren't all full and lazy. Greasemonkeymann made a valid point when we were conversing yesterday about this, he said I would rather my microbes be feed hearty and strong than be starving and weak at the end of the brew. What do you think?
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
That's what I was told by quite a few people I know that have been working with teas for years. They all said when you used molasses in your tea and you check it with your microscope when its ready the microbes are not nearly as active as when molasses is left out. Also leading the microbes to get to work faster in your soil when you water it in since they aren't all full and lazy. Greasemonkeymann made a valid point when we were conversing yesterday about this, he said I would rather my microbes be feed hearty and strong than be starving and weak at the end of the brew. What do you think?
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To the people who are not adding molasses, are you adding another foodstock to the ACT? And if so, what?

'since they aren't all full and lazy'? Can you be more precise on what you mean by this?

When you say you want your microbes feed hearty and strong at the end of the brew, wouldn't this be a matter of increase or decline in population? It's not like the same microbes are living through out the duration of brewing.

P-
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
"Non-sulphured, Black-strap Molasses: Contains no preservative other than the high concentration of sugar. Black-strap molasses contains about 150 different kinds of sugars, from simple to somewhat complex to humics. During the extraction of sugar, heating results in condensation of the sugars into humic-like substances. The majority of foods in molasses are bacterial foods, but a few are fungal foods. Fungi tolerate high concentrations of sugar better than bacteria, so extremely high concentrations of molasses favour fungi. Testing must be performed to assess what concentration is needed to select for fungi and against bacteria in any particular set of conditions. Testing is also needed when using as a nitrate-to-bacterial biomass converter." Words from Dr. Elaine Ingham. This is contrary to what Tim Wilson is trying to say the EXPERTS are saying. Interesting. From all my reading I conclude that Dr. Elaine Ingham is in fact the authority on this topic. I believe you don't use molasses in your AACT because their are better foodstocks you can use in place of molasses. I gather if everything is dialed you don't need molasses to recondition the soil life, your plants are already releasing excess sugars into the soil through the roots and why put all that extra sugar in there. I believe it only helps near the end of flowering when the plant becomes stingy on the sugars and doesn't release as much into the rhizosphere and microbes start to become dormant as stated in the Maximum Yield article.
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
To the people who are not adding molasses, are you adding another foodstock to the ACT? And if so, what?

'since they aren't all full and lazy'? Can you be more precise on what you mean by this?

When you say you want your microbes feed hearty and strong at the end of the brew, wouldn't this be a matter of increase or decline in population? It's not like the same microbes are living through out the duration of brewing.

P-
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I used the term full and lazy only cause the activity is slowed down making them appear this way, not saying they are actually stuffed with food. and yes It would be a matter of increase or decline in population. As for what foodstock to use im still reading and reading to figure out what I want to use from here on out
 
GrowerGoneWild

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
But the fungi are only in the tea for 24-36 hours. We're not worried about "the long run".... only the duration of the brew
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I disagree, the sugary and watery environment of a tea spiked with molasses is not the same as soil. So you're giving the upper hand to the ones that thrive in that environment.

I think the same concept applies from home brewing, for example, I only want certian cultures to thrive before I introduce them to a medium.

For example, sacromyces loves sugar.. but the fungi we really want is trichoderma or mycorrize.. either will grow in molasses spiked solution. However, you can mess up a tea by adding too much molasses. I prefer to have a tea that is loaded with symbyotic fungi vs just any old fungi.
 
Pattahabi

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
"Non-sulphured, Black-strap Molasses: Contains no preservative other than the high concentration of sugar. Black-strap molasses contains about 150 different kinds of sugars, from simple to somewhat complex to humics. During the extraction of sugar, heating results in condensation of the sugars into humic-like substances. The majority of foods in molasses are bacterial foods, but a few are fungal foods. Fungi tolerate high concentrations of sugar better than bacteria, so extremely high concentrations of molasses favour fungi. Testing must be performed to assess what concentration is needed to select for fungi and against bacteria in any particular set of conditions. Testing is also needed when using as a nitrate-to-bacterial biomass converter." Words from Dr. Elaine Ingham. This is contrary to what Tim Wilson is trying to say the EXPERTS are saying. Interesting. From all my reading I conclude that Dr. Elaine Ingham is in fact the authority on this topic. I believe you don't use molasses in your AACT because their are better foodstocks you can use in place of molasses. I gather if everything is dialed you don't need molasses to recondition the soil life, your plants are already releasing excess sugars into the soil through the roots and why put all that extra sugar in there. I believe it only helps near the end of flowering when the plant becomes stingy on the sugars and doesn't release as much into the rhizosphere and microbes start to become dormant as stated in the Maximum Yield article.
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MG, Tim refers to 'the experts' with sarcasm. Elaine has a degree in forestry, not microbiology. Much like Jorge Cervantes (cough... George Van Patton from Ohio - the laborer at a nursery). Not exactly the top of the food chain they pretend to be.

P-
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
MG, Tim refers to 'the experts' with sarcasm. Elaine has a degree in forestry, not microbiology. Much like Jorge Cervantes (cough... George Van Patton from Ohio - the laborer at a nursery). Not exactly the top of the food chain they pretend to be.

P-
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Degree in forestry...interesting I didn't know that. That makes me wonder how long has she actually been researching the microbiology in soil. They both make convincing arguments, I gather if I buy a microscope I can just come up with my own conclusions by trying different things, probably the only way to truly satisfy myself on this question.
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Pattahabi said:
MG, Tim refers to 'the experts' with sarcasm. Elaine has a degree in forestry, not microbiology. Much like Jorge Cervantes (cough... George Van Patton from Ohio - the laborer at a nursery). Not exactly the top of the food chain they pretend to be.

P-
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yeah I started growing with the Horticultural Bible by Jorge, then when I started researching things all the time came to the conclusion that he's pretty much average when it comes to growing. Lots of contradictions in his book. It is a good place to start and easy to get a lot of information when starting, but definitely lacks a lot of knowledge for advanced growing.
 
DonPetro

DonPetro

Well-Known Member
I find the best books are non-cannabis related. I've learned more from The Rodale Book of Composting than i have any other. Looking forward to adding Teaming With Microbes and Teaming With Nutrients to the library.
 
GrowerGoneWild

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
DonPetro said:
I find the best books are non-cannabis related. I've learned more from The Rodale Book of Composting than i have any other. Looking forward to adding Teaming With Microbes and Teaming With Nutrients to the library.
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Ah.. Teaming with microbes by Jeff Lowenfells, a local alaskan gardner.. :) I look up to this guy.. Featured in the Alaska Daily News. If anybody knows how to brew a proper tea it would be this guy.

If pot goes legal, I'm totally going to get a tea based off of his recomendations.
 
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