Any martial artists round here?

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
Hi guys, gotta say i love this kind of talk. un fortunately i have to disagree with this statement about the Chinese arts being weak on its ground game. there is much to consider in a statement like that. are you referring to kungfu as a whole? because the differences between northern and southern styles of old school shaolin kungfu are staggering alone and enough to base argument on.
i knew it was just a matter of time before someone challenged that assertion...

My personal experience was with "a northern family system" (never achieved official practitioner status, so i won't advertise or disclose the name, or claim an undeserved association... though i did witness many amazing things that convinced me that it was indeed a complete system), but my point was that "kung fu does not emphasize grappling like jujitsu does."

It's difficult to articulate exactly what i mean. Suffice to say that kung fu and jujitsu seem to have quite contrasted emphasis, which is where the dynamic becomes interesting, in a conflict between a skilled practitioner of each.

Most people will oversimplify it just like i did: "kung fu is weak in the ground game," which isn't actually accurate; it's just designed differently, and from what i've seen, the really awesome highly advanced grappling stuff comes much later in the training process, and i don't think most people reach that level of advancement... though if they do, they will indeed be equipped to contend with an emphatic grappler. You just don't see professional fighters who claim "kung fu" training, dominating the grappling realm. There are many examples of how "kung fu guys" get caught up and dominated in situations where they face an opponent who has been specifically trained to emphasize grappling.

But if you dig deeper, you'll find concepts like "sticking hands" and stuff like Chin Na (think "nerve string/strand/cord theory, applied to unarmed combat"), which can be highly effective, if the practitioner is able to apply them effectively. I think part of the problem that causes people to think "kung fu is weak in the ground game," is that few ever achieve (and perhaps are not correctly taught) the degree of advancement required to effectively apply those advanced techniques and concepts, at full speed and impact.

There is a reason those legendary "kung fu heroes" of chinese folklore became "legendary."

And those who are capable, have been refining those classical theories and practices ever since.

Essentially, it all comes down to what the individual fighter does with what they're taught. My personal opinion is that Real kung fu is not weak at all, if the one using it, knows how to use it correctly.

However, i still say that few know how to use it correctly, which is where the "kung fu weak ground" consensus comes from. A kung fu guy who hasn't mastered the grappling side of kung fu, is going to be at a disadvantage when facing a skilled jujitsu practitioner... unless said kung fu guy can manage to avoid what the jujitsu guy emphasizes. In a closed space, it's hard to perpetually avoid the grapple, with a grappler who is trained to catch the non-grappler.
 

NvrQuit

New Member
Nick...out here in denver
@#!*% yeah well rounded too. im a lil more one sided cause I favor the ancients. Old school Emperado method Kajukenbo interpreted and taught by Ron Peirce. and Bapak Guru Williem De Thouars system Kuntao Silat in current training with his direct disciple Guru Brian Earnest.I am blessed to have a trainer that is skilled in many arts an so I get the flavor of all of it. he started Tae Kwon Do, Traditional Ninjitsu (both Bukinkan and Genbukan), traditional Chinese Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Hsing-I, Ba Gua, Ba Ji, Qi Gong, as well as is certified in JKD Concepts, holds a Black Belt in “Nubreed Martial Arts” (Wun Hop Kuen Do, Traditional Mixed Martial Arts) and is a personal student under “Professor Ben Fajardo.”-Nubreed Martial Arts. I owe most all of what I know to this man.
 

NvrQuit

New Member
i knew it was just a matter of time before someone challenged that assertion...

My personal experience was with "a northern family system" (never achieved official practitioner status, so i won't advertise or disclose the name, or claim an undeserved association... though i did witness many amazing things that convinced me that it was indeed a complete system), but my point was that "kung fu does not emphasize grappling like jujitsu does."

It's difficult to articulate exactly what i mean. Suffice to say that kung fu and jujitsu seem to have quite contrasted emphasis, which is where the dynamic becomes interesting, in a conflict between a skilled practitioner of each.

Most people will oversimplify it just like i did: "kung fu is weak in the ground game," which isn't actually accurate; it's just designed differently, and from what i've seen, the really awesome highly advanced grappling stuff comes much later in the training process, and i don't think most people reach that level of advancement... though if they do, they will indeed be equipped to contend with an emphatic grappler. You just don't see professional fighters who claim "kung fu" training, dominating the grappling realm. There are many examples of how "kung fu guys" get caught up and dominated in situations where they face an opponent who has been specifically trained to emphasize grappling.

But if you dig deeper, you'll find concepts like "sticking hands" and stuff like Chin Na (think "nerve string/strand/cord theory, applied to unarmed combat"), which can be highly effective, if the practitioner is able to apply them effectively. I think part of the problem that causes people to think "kung fu is weak in the ground game," is that few ever achieve (and perhaps are not correctly taught) the degree of advancement required to effectively apply those advanced techniques and concepts, at full speed and impact.

There is a reason those legendary "kung fu heroes" of chinese folklore became "legendary."

And those who are capable, have been refining those classical theories and practices ever since.

Essentially, it all comes down to what the individual fighter does with what they're taught. My personal opinion is that Real kung fu is not weak at all, if the one using it, knows how to use it correctly.

However, i still say that few know how to use it correctly, which is where the "kung fu weak ground" consensus comes from. A kung fu guy who hasn't mastered the grappling side of kung fu, is going to be at a disadvantage when facing a skilled jujitsu practitioner... unless said kung fu guy can manage to avoid what the jujitsu guy emphasizes. In a closed space, it's hard to perpetually avoid the grapple, with a grappler who is trained to catch the non-grappler.
I understand your bases of conclusion but it is weak in understanding the arts of kungfu (northern or southern) the arts are meant to destroy. of course it is an internal art as well as healing and each system has its own arts in those areas. but its focus is to prepare the body and mind to destroy and healing the body and keeping it fit so that it cannot be easily destroyed. the intention is never to let it get far enough that ground work is necessary.

with that said if you get in to the studies of the southern arts of kungfu, which I prefer...you will see a difference in mind set in regard to the distance kept between opponents. we believe that the closer we are to the enemy the more control we have thus our forms always advance and never back away. there will be an emphasis on destroying the foundation (roots,legs) of the enemy. ground work is implied and necessary to be able to practice such aggressive forms of combat.
 

NvrQuit

New Member
We get a lot of kids in here that like to talk @#!*% exact kind @#!*% don't even post what city they live in so I let em know i will come box I sent a conversation saying hey let's box they all like oh no I gotta family, @#!*% we all got families
I hear ya... so where does your Silat come from?
 

IRON-EYES

Well-Known Member
I learned from a bunch of Cambodian Malaysian and Indonesian kids I was traveling through NYC n picked up some other gypsys they were good people traveled for a year trained for 5 hrs every day partd company out near you actually in Glenwood Springs Colorado
 

IRON-EYES

Well-Known Member
Ended up with a really condensed concentrated education in Penjak they claimed it was majority of Indonesian systems
 

IRON-EYES

Well-Known Member
Impossible to stick to one system anymore to keep it all straight in my head I work pretty fluidly between all of them
 

NvrQuit

New Member
I learned from a bunch of Cambodian Malaysian and Indonesian kids I was traveling through NYC n picked up some other gypsys they were good people traveled for a year trained for 5 hrs every day partd company out near you actually in Glenwood Springs Colorado
hell yeah thats awesome. wis i had gotten in to it alot earlier. just thought i had it all figured out yaknow. now two kids a wife a house and all the other stuff that comes with it its like how do you get time for it any more. you still active training?
 

IRON-EYES

Well-Known Member
And find myself dropping elbow low in the middle of a Muay Thai situation and switching an Irish boxing which ends up working beautifully but it happens on it's own
 

IRON-EYES

Well-Known Member
hell yeah thats awesome. wis i had gotten in to it alot earlier. just thought i had it all figured out yaknow. now two kids a wife a house and all the other stuff that comes with it its like how do you get time for it any more. you still active training?
Allways training I got a wife two kids a camper we travel all over the place go from Campground to Campground place to place hang out with cool people's.

gypsy life man
 

IRON-EYES

Well-Known Member
It's like interesting because I watched the Muay Thai that I do change from where like I usually do a quick cross front step drop the knee outward lunch my weight behind it be doing you know the variety of different knee maneuvers from Muay Thai and now a lot of that is switched off to where I'll be doing those same knee maneuvers and end up switching to Greco Roman wrestling and you know wrap it down to some mutant knees driven throat choke
 

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
I understand your bases of conclusion but it is weak in understanding the arts of kungfu (northern or southern) the arts are meant to destroy. of course it is an internal art as well as healing and each system has its own arts in those areas. but its focus is to prepare the body and mind to destroy and healing the body and keeping it fit so that it cannot be easily destroyed. the intention is never to let it get far enough that ground work is necessary.

with that said if you get in to the studies of the southern arts of kungfu, which I prefer...you will see a difference in mind set in regard to the distance kept between opponents. we believe that the closer we are to the enemy the more control we have thus our forms always advance and never back away. there will be an emphasis on destroying the foundation (roots,legs) of the enemy. ground work is implied and necessary to be able to practice such aggressive forms of combat.
No i agree, it's meant to be a complete system, not only destruction, not only healing, not only striking, not only standing... but when it comes to things like "the intent is to never let it get to the ground in the first place," you don't always get to decide that, unless you can be perfect... which most cannot. So that means there needs to be deep and practiced knowledge of "what to do if things go wrong," which it seems many "professional fighters" lack, or don't practice enough. Which is where that consensus comes from. It's not my opinion of kung fu, it's "the consensus" of the less educated populace judging by what they see happen in publicized fights. "The public" sees "kung fu guy lands a few good strikes, then gets caught and submitted by jujitsu guy," so they conclude "kung fu has weak ground game," when the reality of the situation is that the particular fighter (and many others) are simply insufficiently trained in ground game... perhaps due to an ego trip that insists "it should never, ever go to the ground!" Well why not? Ideally, it shouldn't... but how often are well-matched fights ever "ideal?" In the real world, you need a "plan B," because you might not be able to keep it standing, and you might get caught in a compromised position, and if so, you'll need a way to deal with that... especially since other fighters train specifically for, and to create, that situation, to play into their style's advantages.

"It's meant to destroy" is another reason why i reserve violence for the last option. If i have to use it, someone's getting seriously injured. If i have to use it, it's because i'm forced into a situation which requires me to damage my opponent enough to stop them from harming me... and i know humans are tough and resilient, and can require a significant amount of damage to actually stop them, so you can't hold back at all when someone is actually trying to harm you. And if you don't stop them first, you might not wake up. When the fight begins, compassion ends, it's you or them, no mercy.

I think that consensus comes from most people not realizing that most of the "kung fu fighters" They See, are not necessarily ideal representatives of the whole of the chinese systems... not to mention, there are many different ones, with different approaches and techniques, and probably quite a lot of incomplete "partial systems" being "marketed" as if they were.
 

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
We get a lot of kids in here that like to talk shit exact kind motherfuckers don't even post what city they live in so I let em know i will come box I sent a conversation saying hey let's box they all like oh no I gotta family, motherfucker we all got families
Never said that... again.. keep on lying..
 
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