Newbie Flowering Organic Nutes Question

Hi all,

locdawg here, I have a dilemma requiring some more well knowledge growers of the organic sort to reply. here it goes. i began growing my current crop (6) plants about 2 months ago. they are now roughly 2 months old and about 6-8 inches tall. i have been using fox farms grow big and super thrive every other watering. I have heard that fox farms truth in the statement that they are an actual organic line... i know is debatable, however thats as far as organic im willing to go. so for the consideration of this conversation lets pretend if you will that fox farms is organic. which flowering nute of theirs should i use to keep the common company product. or not if you know of a better one let me know because i will be going to flowering tomorrow and will have to purchase a flowering nute asap to be in time for my first watering in flowering.

thanks in advance for any ideas you all might have

locdawg,

Stay Faded!

Extremely sorry to disappoint you but Superthrive certainly isn't organic, Grow Big is not truly organic and you can't just pretend that it is (mind boggling for sure). The only liquid Fox Farm nutrient that is totally organic is Big Bloom. Some of the other FF liquid nutrients are 'organic-based' as they are labeled.

Simple fact is that the meaning/purpose of organics as a growing style is convoluted. True living organics is a quantum leap from what some would call 'pseudo-organics, aka "trying to be organic as possible" or "as organic as it gets for me". If you really want to grow organically, you have to have a reasonable understanding of what organics is in the first place. Some people are going to argue that the plant doesn't know the difference, "ions are ions", etc. and these individuals I am afraid are also missing the bigger picture.
It's understandable; people look at soil and see.. "dirt" and think of it as being something that is inert but it should actually be teaming with life. The soil biota (fungi, bacteria, archae, protozoans, nematodes, etc.) support the plant in various ways (some more directly than others) and (among other things) they produce fertilizer in the rhizosphere by breaking down organic matter or otherwise carrying out their life processes. The plant expends energy producing sugars, amino acids and other compounds which it excretes through it's roots, into the rhizosphere specifically to attract microbes. The relationship between plants and micro-organisms goes back to the dawn of time, neither could have survived without the other on Earth.

So in a nut shell organics is primarily about microbial proliferation and diversity, and organic matter (including humus). What benefits the soil biota will also benefit the plant. Of course a good organic soil also has all of the usual attributes of a good potting soil such as proper air and water holding capabilities. An organic grower will tell you that a plant should be able to derive the majority of it's nutrition from the soil, with soil biota being key to nutrient availability (they help to regulate the pH so you don't have to). Many organic growers heavily fortify their soils with organic amendments and use water only through out the grow with absolutely no need for liquid fertilizers. Some use organic liquid nutrients with a high organic matter content (includes Big Bloom), and/or brew teas with various natural ingredients. Another problem with most liquid "organic-based" nutrients such as Tiger Bloom and Grow Big is that they don't have a good organic matter content. Lot's also have EDTA which is just plain un-necessary in organics and contra-indicated with the soil biota.

When or if you're ready to stop pretending, I'll be here to help you.

locdawg said:

or not if you know of a better one let me know because i will be going to flowering tomorrow and will have to purchase a flowering nute asap to be in time for my first watering in flowering.

Click to expand...

BioBizz Bio-Bloom, good stuff! http://www.biobizz.nl/
If you do use the BioBizz range be careful; it is not a comprehensive solution as it gives nearly no Magnesium and zero Calcium, as I am finding out the hard way.
Get dolomite lime to compensate if you can get your hands on it.

I like shit. Bat is great for flower. I've been using http://cgi.ebay.com/Archipelago-BAT-GUANO-fertilizer-11-POUNDS_W0QQitemZ130439509305QQihZ003QQcategoryZ20540QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ht_500wt_1156. Is the cheapest I've found and its OMRI listed. Earth worm castings though out and fish emulsions until about the 2-3 week of flower.
Can't go wrong.

thanks for the responses guys well that has truly given me a lot to think on. I guess i was a little miss leading when i stated that ff was as organic as i would be willing to go. what i should have said is that the idiot at my local "garden" store said that it was organic and i should get a decent organic crop from the full line of ff products. i also should have stated that at this juncture i do not have enough money to adjust my grow medium or nutes to full organics, my apologies. so like a noob i took him at his word. i am using cocoa coir as my grow medium. Nullis* i appreciate the heads up, however it does seem as if you are pretty organic savvy... but in the future when you weigh in on someones topic try to remain as neutral as possible. i say this to say when a person is so gung ho for something and the eat,sleep,breathe it they can sometimes come off to others different then they see themselves. if i was a more sensitive person given the way you stated everything i would've assumed you were the type to try and show people up. however since i am a even keeled person i will take your opinions and position as a friendly neighborly gesture. thanks again folks i will certainly be back at a later date to stop "pretending" and get serious.

locdawg,

Stay Faded

Whoa whoa whoa... I don't mean to come off as arrogant, seriously isn't close to my intended/desired tone here; but could you please point out where/what the 'opinions' were in my previous post? I am quite confident that there is not more than one possible 'opinion' in there.

And this is what I mean about the meaning of "organic" growing being convoluted and people missing the bigger picture and why I totally understand how this is. All of that stuff about the soil biota, organic matter and root exudation in the rhizospere, et al is a biological reality; there is nothing opinionated about it. Things die, microbes break their remains (detritus, dead organic matter) down to produce plant available nutrients and humus (organic matter that has entirely decayed), among other things. Without them and the important cycles that they perpetuate (the nitrogen cycle for instance) life as we know it simply would not exist. Humus (end product of decomposition) is largely responsible for supporting plant life on earth. Humus contains a fairly complex array of substances that are important to soil structure and, ultimately, nutrient availability. Sandy/silty soils often lack humus and are barren as a result. Nutrients don't stick around in sand and silt because the particles are unable to hold on to nutrient ions (no cation exchange capacity), so they simply leach away.
It's a little like: no microbes, no humus, no plants, no humus, no microbes, no plants...no animals. It's symbiotic and cyclical, each one dependent on the other for systemic balance and preservation. And a large part of this, the soil food web (a biological fact, not an opinion), is invisible to us without a powerful microscope. So naturally people are ignorant to it, ignore it, or pretend it isn't there.

This is what goes on outdoors, in the natural world. We can take our awareness of it and ensure that everything we do outdoors is biologically friendly, or we can allow something more controlled and refined to take place inside in our soil mixes. In [fact] "my opinion", this is what organics truly is.

Not saying it is the holy grail of cannabis growing or anything (while others may), just that the way I described it is the - way - that - it - is. When something is determined to be "organic" or appropriate for use in organic agriculture (say by the OMRI or USDA/NOP) there is more that goes into that determination than whether the substance in question is sourced naturally or synthetically. It also has to do with sustainability and any potential environmental consequences. Some synthetic substances are allowed to be used in a restricted manner that limits the potential for negative impact on the soil (some just aren't allowed in soil), and only when necessary. On the other hand some 'natural' agents are not allowed at all in commercial organic crop productions (e.g. urea, sludge\night soil). Virtually the only animal by-products that may be used come from herbivores.

On a final note, I don't know that I would call myself 'gung ho' but, well what can I say? I eat, sleep and breath; indeed, I worship Life. Soil is the Father, fauna the Son and flora the Holy Spirit.

nullis* thanks for the clarification on the matter. i indeed did miss type the word opinions in place of opinion. i just merely meant to state that you can over feed noobs with unnecessary particulars, which like i stated before can be misinterpreted for you having an air about you. now that you have cleared up the fact that you meant no disrespect, along with my careful rereading of you statement. I am a ok with everything you said and thinking back to plant life and biology classes in college and high school everything seems fine. i was simply trying to find the best bottled liquid product from an actual organics company so that i could give that little stamp of organic on my product when it hits mmd's in my area... for some reason all the medical user make a big fuss about organics in my area(i understand why but honestly dont see the issue) as long as properly flushed all the marijuana i have ever smoked that was grown right tasted and smoked fine regardless if organic or inorganic nutes were used. and i want to do my best to provide what people are asking for. any how thanks again for the clarification all is well now.

locdawg,

stay faded

Alrighty, well, properly grown organic ganja plants require no flushing. Fox Farm's Big Bloom is their only liquid organic nutrient. Their soils (Potting Mix, Ocean Forest, Light Warrior) are also A-okay in my book, albeit a bit pricey. And if you think my previous posts were mostly just spewing out unnecessary particulars I really don't know what to tell you, my friend. Those are the basics, seriously, perhaps detailed but basics nonetheless. I just can't understand why it is that people seem to become dear I say offended when you try to explain biology.

Maybe this could, possibly, be 'dummed-down' to an extreme but unfortunately for you that just isn't in my nature.

Seriously though do you want to have the best and most successful organic grow that you can or do you just want to throw a bunch of 'organic' shit in a potting mix so you can slap a label on it to entice people? I am afraid I know the answer.

I seem to be having those stonedly sleep deprived mental blocks so bear with me here...

Your soil has to be alive, okay?. Synthetic fertilizers and pH Up, excessive chlorine/chloramine in irrigation water, and urea are examples of things that reduce biological activity and should be avoided where possible. I would recommend starting in fresh unadulterated soil. Take some clones if you can. Case in point: you say you have plants vegging for 2 months which are 6-8 inches. I have 7 plants which were started from seed just over a month ago that are approaching 8 - 12 inches. There was some stretch due to starting under fluorescent lighting, but 6-7 nodes each plant.
Take some clones if possible, start with fresh medium and see if you get better growth this way.

I don't know what you currently use/d but get something that is all natural/organic. Ocean Forest if you can get it, or something with compost/humus, sphagnum peat moss and/or coco coir, dolomite lime or oyster shell, and other organic amendments; earthworm castings, poultry manure is fine, fish, crab, alfalfa, bone meals are good, so on and so fourth. You could go to virtually any home improvement store and get some dry Espoma fertilizer, especially the Bio-Tone Starter+ or Plant-Tone. The entire line has all kinds of good organic stuff in it, all with beneficial microbes but the Starter+ has mycorrhizae which is a good thing to have in your soil.

If you want to go the liquid route, which is fine especially to someone new to organics, get something that actually has organic matter. I've heard good things about Roots Organic bottled nutrients, and Big Bloom, but I pretty much stick with the Earth Juice line as far as bottled nutrients go. The whole Earth Juice line which includes the Grow (2-1-1), Bloom (0-3-1), and Microblast at a minimum pretty much makes for complete plant nutrition just be sure you have plenty of dolomite in your mix. Catalyst is really good to have as well, and you could buy their Hi-Brix MFP or blackstrap molasses from a super market for additional potash and minerals.
Fish hydro and emulsions are good during early growth stages if you need them as snew recommended (holy shit there is a cat in his avatar and a mouse in mine...they are both looking at you). Maxicrop Liquid Seaweed and Earth Juice Catalyst are both sources of naturally occurring growth hormones (Superthrive is basically a synthetic version of these hormones).

i kinda messed my whole grow up to begin with. i was to eager to get started so i went the overly cheap route and used miracle grow for the first id say month and kept the plants growing small in small pots. I made another mistake in saying they were 2 months old I re read my grow log and came up with a more accurate age they are just over a month old being germinated on 3-4-2011 and they are in their first week of flowering at 4-14-2011 and they are like i stated before about 6-10 inches now. had a little more growth due to raising the lights another couple of inches. but im sorry if i came off disrespectful in any way. normally i like to get way down to the particulars of science and all but at the time when i first posted my thread, I was look for a quick short and concise answer. although not quick or short you answer was more than concise and set me straight on a lot of things i thought i had cover. about the roots organics company i did see that bottle on the shelf the last time i was at the hydro store so i will check into that. lastly i go to work tomorrow at a later time then ussual so i will go by and pick up some big bloom. too finish out these plants to keep it consistant with companies, then my next batch of seedlings will get grown with something a bit more along the lines of actual organics.

thanks again for the help and setting me straight about organics,

locdawg
Stay faded