Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

Bird Gymnastics

Bird Gymnastics

New Member
Rising Moon said:
"Under Stockfree-Organic Standard 3.5 the following sources of fertility are prohibited from stockfree-organic systems:

(a) Products of animal or fish origin
(b) manures, slurry or urine
(c) Worm compost

For those who don't know, stockfree-organic standards were set by the Vegan Organic Network, a certifying body in Europe, inspecting and certifying veganic farms.

So, NO,EWC is not allowed in veganic growing, and it for sure violates the growing principal.
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Worm compost is not worm castings. According to the International Symposium on Growing Media and Hydroponics, depending on where your casting are derived from determines the type of beneficial organic compounds within the mixture. So ACTUALLY, if you feed your worms straight vegan food, technically the castings produced are vegan as well. As long as you don't compromise their diet with something derived from animals you are golden.

So what's the difference between TLO and "true living soil?" or are you going to deflect that as well lol
 
Cann

Cann

Well-Known Member
"So, NO,EWC is not allowed in veganic growing, and it for sure violates the growing principal."​



yup...got the same response from kyle kushman and his henchmen at the cannabis cup yesterday...couldn't believe it. I asked how they manage to grow veganically outdoors without earthworms penetrating the growing media..."we grow in large pots"

no response on my question about the tiny critters in the soil food web which are still very much "animals" in the literal sense...nematodes, protozoa, micro and macroarthropods, etc. - no real way to avoid these...so all "veganic" grows are still being aided by the waste product and activity of countless tiny soil animals. that is what gets me about the whole ordeal....

BUT i did get a free sample packet of Kyle's "Veganic Special Sauce" (this is the actual name...I kid you not) Old School Growers OG Tea (cause if it's got OG in the name it has to be good, right?). The magical formula includes Soft Rock Phosphate, Humic Shale, Molasses, and Kelp..and of course your garden variety of bacteria and fungi. Straight into the worm bin where it might get turned into something decent LOL


EDIT: bird - are you saying worms aren't animals....or am i misunderstanding the first rule?

"Products of animal or fish origin"
 
Rising Moon

Rising Moon

Well-Known Member
What an arrogant ass!

"we grow in large pots"

Possibly the most ignorant thing I have read in this forum, coming straight from the guru himself...

If he knew ANYTHING about growing veganic, he would know that cultivation of all levels of indigenous life (WORMS, frogs and other critters) is one of the MOST important aspects of vegan growing!!!

It is prohibited to use worm castings made by worms that are kept like pets, out of the natural environment, NOT excluding them from the EARTH you are growing out of.... Jesus H Christ!

Wow, just wow. Dude has no fucking clue/background to call himself veganic anything. Especially a consultant. LOL!!!!

I bet he hasn't even read any of the veganic literature, none the less browsed their websites.
 
Rising Moon

Rising Moon

Well-Known Member
Bird Gymnastics said:
Worm compost is not worm castings. According to the International Symposium on Growing Media and Hydroponics, depending on where your casting are derived from determines the type of beneficial organic compounds within the mixture. So ACTUALLY, if you feed your worms straight vegan food, technically the castings produced are vegan as well. As long as you don't compromise their diet with something derived from animals you are golden.

So what's the difference between TLO and "true living soil?" or are you going to deflect that as well lol
Click to expand...


NOPE!

Wrong bro, just wrong.

READ THE STANDARDS.

VEGANIC IS AN ACTUAL WAY OF GROWING, NOT SOME BROAD BASED PHILOSOPHY TO BE INTERPRETED HOW YOU SEE FIT.

FARMS CAN BECOME CERTIFIED VEGANIC AND CANNOT USE ANY ANIMAL BASED PRODUCTS. WORMS ARE CONSIDERED ANIMALS.

HUMAN POOP IS ALSO PROHIBITED REGARDLESS OF A VEGAN DIET.

BASED ON YOUR ARGUMENT, GRASS FED COW POOP SHOULD BE OKAY TO USE FOR VEGANIC GARDENS, BECAUSE THEY ATE GRASS, RIGHT?......WRONG.


Living Soil is something that comes from turning under green manures, cover crops and crop residue, it is built slowly, with compost, rock minerals, and crop rotation.

NOT SOMETHING FROM A STONER BOOK, THAT INCLUDES "SPIKES" AND TOP DRESSING BAT GUANO!!!
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
I thought the argument was about what the definition of "true living soil" was, and whether or not it was the same thing as "true living organics", not what the definition of "living soil" is. Maybe that's the confusion over the definition, that you accidentally threw the word "true" in one true many times? ;-)

I agree that the reason the Vegan Organic Network states that Worm Compost is prohibited "as a main source of fertility" may be because worms would be kept as pets, but they don't state that it can't be used as a supplemental fertilizer anywhere that I can see. You can point out if I'm wrong. But I don't see anywhere in their standards something stating that worm castings or worm compost cannot be used at all.

Also, they state "(j) compost that has been shown to encourage beneficial antagonistic organisms and have an inoculating effect on disease". While I'm sure there are plenty of ways to make regular compost that will attract these organisms...Worm compost does that job.

So if the Vegan Organic Network is going to be the decide-all for veganics as you say, they should speak a little more clearly on the topic of EWC.

I emailed them for clarification. I'd actually like to know once and for all whether EWC are being considered vegan by people who actually care about what being vegan means. Kyle Kushman may not be one of those people lol...but I definitely am. I haven't seen anything wrong with keeping worms and feeding them compost because I don't see them as animals or prisoners...but to be honest they're in a plastic thing in my basement haha. But if I kept my worms composting outside, they'd have the option to free themselves at any time either way. Hopefully I get a good response from them...
 
Rising Moon

Rising Moon

Well-Known Member
Curious what the email reply says, keep us posted.

I own the book of standards for veganic growing. As far as I know worm compost/castings of any kind are prohibited.

worms that find their way into your outdoor compost pile, or garden all by them selfs are obviously ok, and encouraged.
 
Rising Moon

Rising Moon

Well-Known Member
The main source of fertility on Veganic farms:

2 years of a legume (red clover) mowed and tilled under during flower,


And, Plant based compost made on the registered holding.
 
Gaia's.Grower

Gaia's.Grower

Well-Known Member
"worms that find their way into your outdoor compost pile, or garden all by them selfs are obviously ok, and encouraged" -rising moon

So is it the method by which the castings are obtained? The worms diet I believe should be under serious scrutiny. As should the living conditions of the worms. Are your saying that castings are okay as long as someone doesn't physically touch the castings and move them or cognitively decide and dictate the mixing ratios/methods? If we leave those choices to the worms then its okay?
 
Bird Gymnastics

Bird Gymnastics

New Member
+ WitchDoctor + said:
I thought the argument was about what the definition of "true living soil" was, and whether or not it was the same thing as "true living organics", not what the definition of "living soil" is. Maybe that's the confusion over the definition, that you accidentally threw the word "true" in one true many times? ;-)

I agree that the reason the Vegan Organic Network states that Worm Compost is prohibited "as a main source of fertility" may be because worms would be kept as pets, but they don't state that it can't be used as a supplemental fertilizer anywhere that I can see. You can point out if I'm wrong. But I don't see anywhere in their standards something stating that worm castings or worm compost cannot be used at all.

Also, they state "(j) compost that has been shown to encourage beneficial antagonistic organisms and have an inoculating effect on disease". While I'm sure there are plenty of ways to make regular compost that will attract these organisms...Worm compost does that job.

So if the Vegan Organic Network is going to be the decide-all for veganics as you say, they should speak a little more clearly on the topic of EWC.

I emailed them for clarification. I'd actually like to know once and for all whether EWC are being considered vegan by people who actually care about what being vegan means. Kyle Kushman may not be one of those people lol...but I definitely am. I haven't seen anything wrong with keeping worms and feeding them compost because I don't see them as animals or prisoners...but to be honest they're in a plastic thing in my basement haha. But if I kept my worms composting outside, they'd have the option to free themselves at any time either way. Hopefully I get a good response from them...
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You are right, this has gotten derailed from what I originally asked. What is the difference between TLO and True living soil? That is it. Whether or not EWC are "truly" veganic or not.

And to answer your question, since worms technically don't have a stomach, if a cow WITHOUT a stomach could eat grass and shit, then yes I would use that manure in my garden. Worm castings is not considered poop with the basic knowledge of knowing worms don't contain a stomach to digest and breakdown elements like ANIMALs would. So technically, Worm castings is like magical "poop" lol
 
Rising Moon

Rising Moon

Well-Known Member
You guys seem a little thick headed, and also are over anayizing everything!

Like I said. True living soil is made with compost, minerals, rotation of crops, green manure use and home made teas, castings, ferments ext.

NOT store bought, bottles, bags, plastics, "organic" fertilizers.

Im talking raw sourced materials. Growing my own comfrey, clover, alfalfa for teas and compost and worm food.

I build my soil with clover and buckwheat. I have chickens graze on my beds that are in cover crops.

I make biochar, biodynamic preparations, fermented plant extracts, compost, leaf mold, EWC and haul my ass out to organic farms and shovel TONS of grass fed manure in to the back of my truck.

In other words. Real deal organic growing. My focus is on my soil and the earth.

Shitting on Rev, Kushman Veganics and TLO ALL DAY LONG.

Im out!

Time for you guys to hit the hydro shop isn't it?
 
Bird Gymnastics

Bird Gymnastics

New Member
Rising Moon said:
You guys seem a little thick headed, and also are over anayizing everything!

Like I said. True living soil is made with compost, minerals, rotation of crops, green manure use and home made teas, castings, ferments ext.

NOT store bought, bottles, bags, plastics, "organic" fertilizers.

Im talking raw sourced materials. Growing my own comfrey, clover, alfalfa for teas and compost and worm food.

I build my soil with clover and buckwheat. I have chickens graze on my beds that are in cover crops.

I make biochar, biodynamic preparations, fermented plant extracts, compost, leaf mold, EWC and haul my ass out to organic farms and shovel TONS of grass fed manure in to the back of my truck.

In other words. Real deal organic growing. My focus is on my soil and the earth.

Shitting on Rev, Kushman Veganics and TLO ALL DAY LONG.

Im out!

Time for you guys to hit the hydro shop isn't it?
Click to expand...
Okay. So back to my first question, how is TLO different from True living soil? Because the basic rundown of what you do is almost identical to TLO style growing. I too do all of that as well, only thing that differs is I dnt use green manure and/or any shit for that matter. Chicken shit might be high in nitrogen, but it will never see my garden. I use a few bottled nutrients but only because some products just can't be mimicked. I use hygrozyme and canna bio boost. Regardless of how much I do and how many teas I make, you will never achieve the results I do without using those two products. Be ignorant if you want but I have tested all these different styles for a couple years now and each have their own benefits for sure, but overall trichrome production as well as flavor, really stands out by just using bio boost(fermented sugar cane)

I just think you are trying to be different by adding a different name. You do exactly what any TLO gardener does besides growing your OWN alfalfa and other beneficials and/or amendments. The more simple my soil mix and teas are the better my garden is, hands down. Keep using buckwheat and things of sort, because you my friend are going over and beyond in a negative way.

Im out!
 
Rising Moon

Rising Moon

Well-Known Member
LOL using buckwheat is over and beyond....

Try telling that to ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about organic farming.

Cover crops like buckwheat and clover are VERY basic, Like Organic Farming 101...

Cornell University (Ivy League AG school) now even recommends using buckwheat as the basic building block for soil on organic farms for a number of reasons...

It is cheap, grows prolifically, easily, resists drought, is pest/disease free, builds organic matter, fixes calcium, provides forage for beneficial insects, can be grown multiple times per season and is easy to save your own seed for after buying and growing it ONCE.

Why is this over and beyond "in a negative way"?

Oh yeah, because you know nothing about it.

http://www.hort.cornell.edu/bjorkman/lab/covercrops/buckwheat.php

If those expensive bottles you cling to were so good, why dont I read about them in books about agriculture/farming/gardening...?

Must be that those PROFESSIONAL farmers are missing out on something right...? Like your hygrozyme and canna bio boost....

Yeah right!

Glorified sugar is what I call bio canna, and it doesn't even come from organic cane sugar LOL.

Meanwhile the real farmers are GROWING the fertility required by their plants,

and you are BUYING them.

True Living Soil in a nutshell.



So, tell me ALL about the BIODYNAMIC preps you make?

What are they again...?
 
Cann

Cann

Well-Known Member
Bird Gymnastics said:
I use a few bottled nutrients but only because some products just can't be mimicked. I use hygrozyme and canna bio boost. Regardless of how much I do and how many teas I make, you will never achieve the results I do without using those two products. Be ignorant if you want but I have tested all these different styles for a couple years now and each have their own benefits for sure, but overall trichrome production as well as flavor, really stands out by just using bio boost(fermented sugar cane)
Click to expand...
dude...hate to break it to you but you have been brainwashed to death by the hydro store employees and marketing department at High Times magazine...why would you pay $100 for 1/2 gallon of fermented sugar cane??? LOL. Mix yourself a FPE with dandelion, comfrey, horsetail, etc. and then add molasses after a few days. boom, bio-boost for 1/100th the price - plus you get all of the enzymes etc that you wouldn't get from bio-boost (sitting in a bottle for months is not conducive to enzyme health)

hygrozyme can easily be mimicked with a sprouted seed enzyme tea. zyme is the key here...enzymes are much easier to get from fresh plants than from something out of a bottle (not to mention the $$$). if you need something out of a bottle, a dilution of 1:15 young coconut water and h20 will give you better results than you have ever seen - i guarantee it. doubt me? try it out...

Do a side by side and compare - you'll see. Every product on the market can be mimicked at home...despite what you might think. Canna does not posses any "secret" knowledge that we don't have access too...they just convince you they do and then put an awesome fancy label and high price tag on their products (cause if its expensive, its got to be good right?).


On the subject of TLO vs. "living soil"...there are most definitely a few fundamental differences that you aren't grasping.

1. TLO advocates the use of bottled products such as cal/mg, etc. "living soil" does not support this AT ALL.
2. TLO encourages the use of "spikes and layers" - something that is inherently ridiculous. "living soil" utilizes a thoroughly mixed medium
3. TLO is trying to SELL YOU SOMETHING - "living soil" is about bonding with your soil, loving it, and understanding it in order to support your plants
4. TLO advocates the use of bagged products like "gardner and bloome" EWC, bagged potting soils, etc. "living soil" is about constructing your own soil from scratch so that you know exactly what goes into your product. With "living soil" one spends much more time sourcing their ingredients because they realize that high quality ingredients make a high quality end product. Foraging for local plants/leaf litter and using these in the soil/teas is something that is not advocated in TLO (probably because they won't be seeing any $$$ from it...)
5. TLO still follows the modern cannabis paradigm of "feed the plant" whereas "living soil" follows the old proverb "feed the soil, not the plant".
6. TLO does not suggest the use of a cover crop/companion plants, whereas "living soil" is all about synergy within the rhizosphere
7. TLO considers many insects to be pests, whereas "living soil" welcomes things like soil mites, springtails, rove beetles, etc.

TLO is the lazy mans version of "living soil"...I could keep going forever on this if you really want...just give it up dude. TLO is a marketing situation, "living soil" is horticulture. I will agree that in the spectrum of cannabis growing they are very close (both on the far end of organic practices) but they are NOT THE SAME THING. ever notice that there isn't anyone selling "living soil" books, etc. in the cannabis market? it's cause there is NO MONEY TO BE MADE from this...the folks selling stuff to hydro stores are raking in the cash from all of the brainwashed growers out there. these products are not sold to real horticulturists - they know better than to buy the snake oil. Look through the Rev's book and see how many subtle ads there are...talk about backend revenue. The simple fact that he is selling something should immediately raise red flags (even if it is just a "style" of growing - hell, veganics is a "style" of growing and we all know how that goes..). Stop pretending that you know everything and we are being "ignorant", do some reading, and throw away those bottles of trash. Listen to Rising Moon, he knows what he is talking about. Keep being a dick and we will stop giving you help....lol.

EDIT: rising moon, LOL - "above and beyond" totally means he doesn't understand and doesn't want to spend the time to understand...but we're the ones who are "ignorant" in his words...

he'll take the time, do the reading, and get there one day. it'll just take a few failed crops from hygrozyme and bio boost haha
 
Cann

Cann

Well-Known Member
oh yeah and I got a clarification from the master cultivator (LOL) himself - Kyle Kushman - yesterday at the cannabis cup. He says that earthworms are allowed in his version of veganic cultivation only if they are fed a strict vegan diet. As he put it, the worms don't have true stomachs and instead act as a medium for bacteria to breakdown organic material, and since bacteria are not "animals" it is not an animal byproduct in the conventional sense of the word. Basically, a stomach has to be involved for it to be true "poop". On the subject of nematodes and protozoa, etc, he said that they were welcomed in veganic growing (because theyre basically impossible to avoid) and that their inputs are not large enough to affect the "veganic integrity" of the soil. He did agree that nematodes and protozoa can be considered animals in the traditional sense...although I had to explain to him the definition of "animal" and eukaryotes vs prokaryotes etc. He said that he did not have the vocabulary to explain why earthworms and nematodes etc are allowed, but that they comply with the veganic definitions..he then ushered me over to his kylekushman.com sign up sheet.....

LOL so despite the insane misinformation that he produced (master cultivator eh?) he also agreed that there are hundreds of thousands of animals in every batch of veganic soil which are constantly shitting on your wonderful "veganic" heaven...I would consider this non-veganic of course, but he says it's good to go. i guess it depends on the definition of "vegan" which I have never taken the time or energy to look up...

animals are part of this planet....why would we want to exclude them? especially from something as raw and primal as soil...that shit needs its animals to be alive! I guess that's where veganics and "living soil" differ...one of the million ways.

so there you have it....who the f*** knows what veganic means
 
Bird Gymnastics

Bird Gymnastics

New Member
Cann said:
dude...hate to break it to you but you have been brainwashed to death by the hydro store employees and marketing department at High Times magazine...why would you pay $100 for 1/2 gallon of fermented sugar cane??? LOL. Mix yourself a FPE with dandelion, comfrey, horsetail, etc. and then add molasses after a few days. boom, bio-boost for 1/100th the price - plus you get all of the enzymes etc that you wouldn't get from bio-boost (sitting in a bottle for months is not conducive to enzyme health)

hygrozyme can easily be mimicked with a sprouted seed enzyme tea. zyme is the key here...enzymes are much easier to get from fresh plants than from something out of a bottle (not to mention the $$$). if you need something out of a bottle, a dilution of 1:15 young coconut water and h20 will give you better results than you have ever seen - i guarantee it. doubt me? try it out...

Do a side by side and compare - you'll see. Every product on the market can be mimicked at home...despite what you might think. Canna does not posses any "secret" knowledge that we don't have access too...they just convince you they do and then put an awesome fancy label and high price tag on their products (cause if its expensive, its got to be good right?).


On the subject of TLO vs. "living soil"...there are most definitely a few fundamental differences that you aren't grasping.

1. TLO advocates the use of bottled products such as cal/mg, etc. "living soil" does not support this AT ALL.
2. TLO encourages the use of "spikes and layers" - something that is inherently ridiculous. "living soil" utilizes a thoroughly mixed medium
3. TLO is trying to SELL YOU SOMETHING - "living soil" is about bonding with your soil, loving it, and understanding it in order to support your plants
4. TLO advocates the use of bagged products like "gardner and bloome" EWC, bagged potting soils, etc. "living soil" is about constructing your own soil from scratch so that you know exactly what goes into your product. With "living soil" one spends much more time sourcing their ingredients because they realize that high quality ingredients make a high quality end product. Foraging for local plants/leaf litter and using these in the soil/teas is something that is not advocated in TLO (probably because they won't be seeing any $$$ from it...)
5. TLO still follows the modern cannabis paradigm of "feed the plant" whereas "living soil" follows the old proverb "feed the soil, not the plant".
6. TLO does not suggest the use of a cover crop/companion plants, whereas "living soil" is all about synergy within the rhizosphere
7. TLO considers many insects to be pests, whereas "living soil" welcomes things like soil mites, springtails, rove beetles, etc.

TLO is the lazy mans version of "living soil"...I could keep going forever on this if you really want...just give it up dude. TLO is a marketing situation, "living soil" is horticulture. I will agree that in the spectrum of cannabis growing they are very close (both on the far end of organic practices) but they are NOT THE SAME THING. ever notice that there isn't anyone selling "living soil" books, etc. in the cannabis market? it's cause there is NO MONEY TO BE MADE from this...the folks selling stuff to hydro stores are raking in the cash from all of the brainwashed growers out there. these products are not sold to real horticulturists - they know better than to buy the snake oil. Look through the Rev's book and see how many subtle ads there are...talk about backend revenue. The simple fact that he is selling something should immediately raise red flags (even if it is just a "style" of growing - hell, veganics is a "style" of growing and we all know how that goes..). Stop pretending that you know everything and we are being "ignorant", do some reading, and throw away those bottles of trash. Listen to Rising Moon, he knows what he is talking about. Keep being a dick and we will stop giving you help....lol.

EDIT: rising moon, LOL - "above and beyond" totally means he doesn't understand and doesn't want to spend the time to understand...but we're the ones who are "ignorant" in his words...

he'll take the time, do the reading, and get there one day. it'll just take a few failed crops from hygrozyme and bio boost haha
Click to expand...
Wasn't being a dick at all I was just wondering why you couldn't give me a straight answer. Now that you have, thank you. I don't go to grow stores and haven't learned anything from these sits except from people's failures. I have done many FPE and never had results like bio boost delivers. Even had a horticulturist try the same thing and he couldnt achieve results like canna does. There is a reason certain products are expensive and this is why.

What I mean about over and beyond is the fact you are working to hard to achieve the results you obtain. Keeping it simple, with your basic regiments of preparing soil, brewing teas etc. you guys seem like those over analytic type people who find 15 different ways to tighten a screw when my mentality is, "righty tighty, lefty loosey" haha. Never meant to spin out of control I just wanted to see your guys explanation of TLO compared to true living soil. I'm sorry if you guys misconstrued how I was coming off, I am super medicated when on this site. So no hard feelings, I don't like having enemies but many friends :)
 
HiloReign

HiloReign

Well-Known Member
Someone had to serve up the humble pie. Thanks a lot, my friends whom bake.

While I have to admit, I bought the book and read it (TLO), I found some of his writings humorous. I am entirely new to organic growing (the right way) and even that much was apparent. To quote the Rev:

"One of my all-time favorite bulbs for full term, sprout to harvest TLO growing is the Eye Blue Metal halide (MH). My least favorite is the High Pressure Sodium (HPS) bulb. HPS bulbs do not seem to allow the plant to absorb and/ or process nutrients as well as the MH bulbs, unless you are growing with a synthetic set up or a “Soup-Style” organic set up, which I will discuss later in this book.

Rev, The (2012-10-01). True Living Organics: The Ultimate Guide to Growing All-Natural Marijuana Indoors (Kindle Locations 244-247). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

He goes on to offer nothing in support of why MH is better than HPS. There's obviously much more to poke at in the book, but what do I know...
 
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