Removing Fan Leaves During Flower? Are you serious?

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bob harris

Well-Known Member
gladstoned said:
Bob,
I think you just explained it. If you stick with a strain and keep fine tuning and getting better, then you learn what is the right way and what is the wrong way.

If you have been growing a strain for several runs and then you pluck off all the fan leaves early in flowering and you don't yield nearly as much, then YOU KNOW that is the wrong way, if it increases it, then it's the right way. It is that simple. I don't know the answer, cuz I have never experimented with it. I, like many others, have always plucked them when they looked half dead (or worse obviously). I think this is one debate that does have a right answer, and I sure am curious. It is a concept that I don't think would vary greatly between strains either.

Very Interesting I think.
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It's just that I do tend to grow the same strain for a long time. And I've noticed that they like different things. I've got a batch of Long flowering time sativa (14 weeks) that is just about done. I've grown this strain for the last 3 years, and I always treat for mites around the end of the 3rd week of flower, whether I see mites or not. Just feel it's the last opportunity before the plants are really a pain to handle. This time I tried to mix my own pyrthum (or however it's spelled) from concentrate, and must have made it way to strong. Plants reacted like I sprayed them with acid..leaves crinkling up and dying all over the place. Plants ended up dropping almost all their fan leaves by the 6th week of flower. It's affected my yield..far fewer buds. The odd thing is the buds that are there are the nicest looking I've seen this strain produce. Huge resin production, fat and colorful. Some how the "stress" of the ordeal seems to have made the plant produce better looking buds.

Now, I don't plan on trying to repeat this procedure and call it a 'technique", but it sure reminds me of how many times I've seen a strain do something I've never see before.
 
MacGuyver4.2.0

MacGuyver4.2.0

Well-Known Member
jesus of Cannabis said:

i am taking the fan leaves off tomorrow...not all but enough to make some space in the middle for the inner buds
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Exactly as it should be done...if you remove too many leaves from ANY plant you not only stress it out, but reduce the energy producing capabilities, reducing growth and yield! Just remembe: WWJD? :mrgreen:
 
darkdestruction420

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
i'd like to see an example of 2 clones grown identically except for removing all the fan leaves right before the end on 1 helped the plants final results as it doesnt make any sense to me how removing the main and most effecient energy making and storing leaves right when the plants are about to put all their energy into the last big push of flowering at around 2 weeks from harvest when the buds really swell up and gain their density scientifically works. ive seen many examples of noobs making this mistake and the final push turning into a sputter and really hurting their yields and density. I call it the right way as its simple botanical knowledge it goes against any scientific reasoning. sure different strains respond better to different things but it doesnt mean that simple botany no longer applies. what is the scientific reasoning that removing all the fan leaves a few weeks or so before harvest would be beneficial? I'm sorry that I worded my first post the way i did. i should of elaborated my thoughts/arguments after saying that instead of only saying that.
 
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bob harris

Well-Known Member
darkdestruction420 said:
i'd like to see an example of 2 clones grown identically except for removing all the fan leaves right before the end on 1 helped the plants final results as it doesnt make any sense to me how removing the main and most effecient energy making and storing leaves right when the plants are about to put all their energy into the last big push of flowering at around 2 weeks from harvest when the buds really swell up and gain their density scientifically works. ive seen many examples of noobs making this mistake and the final push turning into a sputter and really hurting their yields and density. I call it the right way as its simple botanical knowledge it goes against any scientific reasoning. sure different strains respond better to different things but it doesnt mean that simple botany no longer applies. what is the scientific reasoning that removing all the fan leaves a few weeks or so before harvest would be beneficial? I'm sorry that I worded my first post the way i did. i should of elaborated my thoughts/arguments after saying that instead of only saying that.
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However Jeast (03.13.02) believes that the rich green leaves emerging from the bud are a sufficient energy source of solar energy for the plant’s floral development. Therefore the old fan leaves are once again rendered useless and only drain energy from the developing part of the plant (Jeast, 03.13.02).

The above is a quote from a book by Rosenthall...not saying I totally agree..but to show the "scientific" argument...and further show that the real answer is....what ever works for you...It must have worked for someone..just like the "nail in the stem" theory of adding stress, probably worked for someone...maybe they had an iron def and didn't know it...
 
hazeman1911

hazeman1911

Well-Known Member
i needed a good laugh i think hes trying 2 say more light to the "nodes
" will help the plant but ripping leaves off is not good we all no that
 
420God

420God

Well-Known Member
These threads are always fun.

For those that haven't grown anything other than cannabis you should type "How to Prune" into youtube and it'll show you that trimming and pruning is actually quite common in gardening to help increase yield in all varieties of plants.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
I let the plant decide when it's done with a particular leaf. When it's ready to be removed, you will know.

Good topic!
 
mufastaa

mufastaa

Active Member
After studying biology and reviewing plant anatomy, i dont know why you think plants store energy in leaves. water and minerals are fed to leaf through xylem and sucrose (energy) is returned through the phloem. there are no energy storage organs in the leaf. the plant does not "decide" to store or take energy from the leaf, and the yellow pigment isn't the energy being drained, but the clorophyll dying.
The argument for cutting the fan leaves early is simple, the water and minerals going to the leaf, and the little energy associated with moving it, could better be used elsewhere.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
mufastaa said:
After studying biology and reviewing plant anatomy, i dont know why you think plants store energy in leaves. water and minerals are fed to leaf through xylem and sucrose (energy) is returned through the phloem. there are no energy storage organs in the leaf. the plant does not "decide" to store or take energy from the leaf, and the yellow pigment isn't the energy being drained, but the clorophyll dying.
The argument for cutting the fan leaves early is simple, the water and minerals going to the leaf, and the little energy associated with moving it, could better be used elsewhere.
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Well, I don't need to have a degree in botany to know that the leafs function is to convert carbon dioxide and water (in the presence of light) in to glucose (energy). So the fact that leaves may not store much of this energy is kind of irrelevant considering the leaves create the fuel for the plant, and that fuel is used to create buds. I'd say that's a pretty important process. Given that fact, I can perhaps understand thinning the plant out a bit towards the END of the flowering cycle when you feel the buds are mostly ripe, and the presence of light to bud sites out weighs the importance of additional energy being created. But not early on in flowering.

So, I would change your last sentence from "The argument for cutting fan leaves early is simple ...." to "The argument for cutting fan leaves early is stupid ...."
 
gladstoned

gladstoned

Well-Known Member
Man, you guys are going to make me fuck up a plant aren't you? lol. I kept thinking about this thread earlier. It's shocking that we don't agree on something that is very basic. I mean basic, as in common plant growth - not as is, basic and I know the answer. lol
 
B

bob harris

Well-Known Member
gladstoned said:
Man, you guys are going to make me fuck up a plant aren't you? lol. I kept thinking about this thread earlier. It's shocking that we don't agree on something that is very basic. I mean basic, as in common plant growth - not as is, basic and I know the answer. lol
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It's not THAT shocking. Growers, even great growers, disagree on all sorts of stuff. Organic or Hydro and why? Light schedules, 24/0 or 18/6 for veg? training, topping...the list goes on.

People try weird stuff all the time..sometimes it works. Sometimes it dosent. But most people I know "experiment"...
 
gladstoned

gladstoned

Well-Known Member
bob harris said:
It's not THAT shocking. Growers, even great growers, disagree on all sorts of stuff. Organic or Hydro and why? Light schedules, 24/0 or 18/6 for veg? training, topping...the list goes on.

People try weird stuff all the time..sometimes it works. Sometimes it dosent. But most people I know "experiment"...
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That's exactly what I am saying. I see all those arguements. The job of the fan leaf should be pretty cut and dry.
 
darkdestruction420

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
mufastaa said:
After studying biology and reviewing plant anatomy, i dont know why you think plants store energy in leaves. water and minerals are fed to leaf through xylem and sucrose (energy) is returned through the phloem. there are no energy storage organs in the leaf. the plant does not "decide" to store or take energy from the leaf, and the yellow pigment isn't the energy being drained, but the clorophyll dying.
The argument for cutting the fan leaves early is simple, the water and minerals going to the leaf, and the little energy associated with moving it, could better be used elsewhere.
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encarta encyclopedia, photosynthesis-
INTRODUCTION

Photosynthesis, process by which green plants and certain other organisms use the energy of light to convert carbon dioxide and water into the simple sugar glucose. In so doing, photosynthesis provides the basic energy source for virtually all organisms. An extremely important byproduct of photosynthesis is oxygen, on which most organisms depend.

Photosynthesis occurs in green plants, seaweeds, algae, and certain bacteria. These organisms are veritable sugar factories, producing millions of new glucose molecules per second. Plants use much of this glucose, a carbohydrate, as an energy source to build leaves, flowers, fruits, and seeds. They also convert glucose to cellulose, the structural material used in their cell walls. Most plants produce more glucose than they use, however, and they store it in the form of starch and other carbohydrates in roots, stems, and leaves. The plants can then draw on these reserves for extra energy or building materials. "
the leaves store energy too.
 
darkdestruction420

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
bob harris said:
However Jeast (03.13.02) believes that the rich green leaves emerging from the bud are a sufficient energy source of solar energy for the plant’s floral development. Therefore the old fan leaves are once again rendered useless and only drain energy from the developing part of the plant (Jeast, 03.13.02).

The above is a quote from a book by Rosenthall...not saying I totally agree..but to show the "scientific" argument...and further show that the real answer is....what ever works for you...It must have worked for someone..just like the "nail in the stem" theory of adding stress, probably worked for someone...maybe they had an iron def and didn't know it...
Click to expand...
i found that source. you neglected to quote this part of it though where it argues very well and strongly against removing them like i was thinking it might.

"Plants have two different kinds of vessels in their stems to move stuff around, xylem and phloem. Xylem runs from the roots up the stem carrying water and nutrients. Phloem runs both up and down to move sugars hormones, proteins, etc but mostly sugars. Each part of the plant can be either a sugar source or a sugar sink (Shipperke, 03.15.2002). Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers. Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity. Upper leaves bring sucrose to shoot apical meristem and young leaves while lower leaves bring goodies to roots (UK Tricky Knome, 03.17.2002). Remove the source and the sink will be affected (Diels Alder, 03.15.2002).
 
B

bob harris

Well-Known Member
darkdestruction420 said:
i found that source. you neglected to quote this part of it though where it argues very well and strongly against removing them like i was thinking it might.

"Plants have two different kinds of vessels in their stems to move stuff around, xylem and phloem. Xylem runs from the roots up the stem carrying water and nutrients. Phloem runs both up and down to move sugars hormones, proteins, etc but mostly sugars. Each part of the plant can be either a sugar source or a sugar sink (Shipperke, 03.15.2002). Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers. Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity. Upper leaves bring sucrose to shoot apical meristem and young leaves while lower leaves bring goodies to roots (UK Tricky Knome, 03.17.2002). Remove the source and the sink will be affected (Diels Alder, 03.15.2002).
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I didn't neglect it to mis lead..merely to show the argument. The quote goes on to say that "Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity."..which could be argued that the sugar leaves are plenty to supply the flowers.

Again..I'm not supporting cutting off all fan leaves..just pointing out the complexity of the debate.
 
gladstoned

gladstoned

Well-Known Member
You guys are over my head, but the debate is just complex cuz we don't know the answer. To a botonist, this is like asking the mechanic,
What do the brakes do?
They stop the car.
Well if I take them off will I go faster?
No, taking off your brakes won't make you go faster and when you are done driving you are going to need those fuckers, so leave them on the car.
Oh, OK thanks.
 
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