looking for some help with yellowing, brown blotches (pics, details)

hey hey....

been reading for a while, havent really posted anything, but i could use some knowledge.

growspace:4x4x6 homebox growlab, 400w hps, no CO2 setup, 77-80 degrees, humidy varies (as i had a lot of other seedlings in there for a while (veggies for garden, houseplants, etc...40-50 other plants-theyre now gone), but humidity tends to be around 30-40%,...fresh (basement) air intake and exhaust...lights:18-6.

plant details: NL (not sure of strain specifics), in a medium, largeish size pot (2 gal?), growing in FFOF, watering every few days, water ph tends to be between 6.2 and 6.8, so i try not to up or down it unless it falls outside that range. very little nutes, but FF GROW BIG on occasion, usually not more than a 1/2 dose, every few waterings maybe (friend that i got the clone from didnt use any nutes really at all for the most part, and got great results with the mother and a 1000w hps - over 12 oz from one plant, grown from sept to may). got it as a clone 7 weeks ago, its been doing pretty awesome overall until a few weeks ago, when it started showing these oddities. took 9 clones from her 13 days ago.

plant issues: noticing yellowing on older fan leaves, starting from the tips, with a combination of brown spots or blotches (usually not both on the same leaf) the tiny spots seem to appear only on lower old fan leaves, on yellowed parts, the blotches near the tips are on older fan leaves in the middle of the plant, for the most part, on yellowed parts. also, downward clawing leaves on most young fan leaves, but they straighten out as they age.

the pics are from last night, after i hadnt watered for 2-4 days (cant remember, been busy). overall, the plant looks better now, after i gave her some water and a first shot of some blackstrap molasses (1/2 tsp per 1/2 gallon H20), aside from the other issues....

i would appreciate some adivice, preferably from someone that knows, rather than random guesses, but those work sometimes too....thanks.

hmm not to sure , but its normal for the bottom leaves to slowly die off , and yeah it starts from the tips. why would u let your plant go that long without water? it looks so stressed.

Could tell you ehat the problem was after the 4th pic . Its defenetly a Nitrogen deficency . Give your plant some nitrogen , In a day or 2 you will see the diference , A nitrogen def starts at the bottom leafs and works its way in towards the stem , the leafs feal healthy and still look healthy but go from green to light green to yellow , . Too much nitrogen the leafs go dead dark green then the tips start to burn then the edges then the whole leaf. Not sure if you will get any more replys as i THINK most growers will agree .
The leafs want to be a nice healthy green . Are you in flower or are you still vegging

They look underwatered to me from those pictures, but it sounds like you've corrected that already.

Your pH needs to stay at 6.5 or higher or you will start getting Calcium and Magnesium lockout. Mag lockout often causes the leaves to turn yellow in between the veins while the veins stay green, like your plants are doing. It also causes the leaves to fold upward in a 'taco' shape, but it's hard to see if yours are doing this since they are so droopy from wanting water. If you can post pics after they perk up that would help.

If your soil is getting too acidic (below 6.5), you need to flush it out and make sure you get your water pH up to 6.5 and higher. In the future you can add some Dolomite Lime to your soil before you plant, it is a pH buffer and will help to keep this problem from happening again.

Also, are you in flowering stage? If not, you should use the Big Grow fertilizer for the grow stage instead of the Big Bloom. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

And about the nitrogen, your leaves look plenty dark green to me, but it is really hard to tell from the pictures and the droopyness. Nitrogen and Magnesium def are very similar in their yellowing effects, it should be easier to tell which one it is with better pictures once the leaves stand back up again.

the pot has only one hole in middle of bottom right,it needs more holes and put on something
even better would be repot(not ideal iknow) in slightly bigger pot with more holes alreddy in it up the sides a bit
put some gravle, charcole,purlight in bottom of pot about 20mm 1inch deep
if u do this and im right when u repot the bottom soil will be soaked and stink a bit
after repot water flush at least 3-4 times the pot size
and watch it take off in about 3days

water the poor ladies ha-ha.. I think once you water them you will be marked improvement.. After that look at what else is align them.

MrG said:

water the poor ladies ha-ha.. I think once you water them you will be marked improvement.. After that look at what else is align them.

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you mean ailing? align is an entirely different word.

mississippi said:

the pot has only one hole in middle of bottom right,it needs more holes and put on something
even better would be repot(not ideal iknow) in slightly bigger pot with more holes alreddy in it up the sides a bit
put some gravle, charcole,purlight in bottom of pot about 20mm 1inch deep
if u do this and im right when u repot the bottom soil will be soaked and stink a bit
after repot water flush at least 3-4 times the pot size
and watch it take off in about 3days

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what in the hell are you talking about? please dont bother to respond unless you speak english well. were you even trying to post in this thread?

Antigen said:

They look underwatered to me from those pictures, but it sounds like you've corrected that already.

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yeah, watered two nights ago with 6.54 water and 1 tsp /gal of blackstrap molasses. watered again today after reading your advice with 6.76 water with 2 tsp of FF grow big (i meant to type grow big in my initial post, but typed big bloom on accident, i was pretty tired).

Your pH needs to stay at 6.5 or higher or you will start getting Calcium and Magnesium lockout. Mag lockout often causes the leaves to turn yellow in between the veins while the veins stay green, like your plants are doing. It also causes the leaves to fold upward in a 'taco' shape, but it's hard to see if yours are doing this since they are so droopy from wanting water. If you can post pics after they perk up that would help.

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i guess its good to get some reinforcement about ph. i know its extremely important, my friend advises me to be at 6.8, but i figured if it wasnt below 6.3 or so, it would be alright. i didnt want to add up or down if i didnt need to. i guess i know that i need to be between 6.5 and 6.8 now, it helps to know why, thanks...

If your soil is getting too acidic (below 6.5), you need to flush it out and make sure you get your water pH up to 6.5 and higher. In the future you can add some Dolomite Lime to your soil before you plant, it is a pH buffer and will help to keep this problem from happening again.

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good to know.

Also, are you in flowering stage? If not, you should use the Big Grow fertilizer for the grow stage instead of the Big Bloom. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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yeah, im vegging, sorry about the big bloom/ grow big confusion...

And about the nitrogen, your leaves look plenty dark green to me, but it is really hard to tell from the pictures and the droopyness. Nitrogen and Magnesium def are very similar in their yellowing effects, it should be easier to tell which one it is with better pictures once the leaves stand back up again.

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yeah, shes always been on the darker side, i was giving her more nutes at first (1/4 - 1/2 dose grow big, every other watering), and decided to back off a bit. seemed like the leaves were getting too dark from nutes. the healthy leaves are good in color now. it didnt really seem at all like N def to me (ive read up a bit on plant problems before posting, trying to figure it out myself, but this is my first grow, i appreciate the help).

so i watered again today with 2 tsp grow big/ gal, and i took some pics in some more natural light for you guys too...ill keep you updated. pics taken just before i watered again.

sorry just guessed that pot diddent have enough drain holes
slow typer
bad speller

no, the pot has plenty of drainage. in fact, when i water, sometimes im concerned that there is too much runoff...

AAHHHHH! fuck. bugs. now i have bugs.

i guess when it rains, it pours. not sure what they are, never noticed them before....tiny, brownish-orangeish teardrop shaped bodies (as far as i can tell. lots of em...crawling in the soil and on the rim of the pot, didnt see any on the leaves. going to try to figure out what they are, too small for photos (and my camera battery just died anyways).

so yeah, what do i do about bugs? what are some good insecticides that dont harm the ladies? or do i go another route?

Yeah, your plants look very green, so I don't think you have a Nitrogen deficiency. It actually looks like too much, I would hold off on the ferts for a couple waterings. Also, quick check, do you measure your water's pH after you add your nutes and any other things to it?

Have you ever flushed this plant? Acid salts could be built up on the soil's surface. You need to run 3X the amount of soil's worth of water through to make sure you push those salts all the way to the bottom and out. For instance if your pot is 3 gallons, run 9 gallons of water through it to flush it out. Flushing will definitely help if Magnesium lockout is the problem.

And on to the bugs . . .. First make sure you don't have the worst of the worst, spider mites. Check the underside of your fan leaves for tiny brown specks, they will look kind of like slow-moving pepper. The tops of the leaves will have tiny white spots on them where the mite sucked out the juices from the bottom.

Do you see any damage that looks like it was caused by insects (white spots, chewed or missing leaf parts)? You can get a pyrethrin spray like "Don't Bug Me" that is not too toxic as far as insecticides go. Just make sure that if you spray your plants with something, put them in the dark for 1 or 2 hours to let the liquid evaporate. If you put them right under the lights all wet, you could burn them via the 'magnifying glass' effect of the light through the droplets. Also don't spray your plants once they are in the flowering phase. A pyrethrin spray should work fine for most bugs, but if you do find that you have spider mites you'll have to use something more agressive.

sounds like gnats, sand on top of soil 15mm or 3/4inch deep stops them,
sorry agan about befor, mite be right this time

Fungus gnats are black and will have wings. They look like tiny mosquitos. If yours do not have wings then they are something else.

Fungus gnat adult:

View attachment 914854

they do lay eggs in soil ,
witch hatch into little grubs
witch turn into little bugs that run around no top of soil they then grow wings and mate agan

could be root aphids... which sucks =( usually the end result is death, hard to get these pesky little critters out of your pots without killing the plant, but your plant looks old enough where it might be able to endure some pesticides...

mississippi said:

they do lay eggs in soil ,
witch hatch into little grubs
witch turn into little bugs that run around no top of soil they then grow wings and mate agan

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Don't want to start a fight or anything, I just want to make sure people get the correct information.

Here is the life cycle of the fungus gnat, there is no time when they run around without wings. They're either a little maggot, a pupa (where they don't move, they are under the dirt transforming), or they're the adult, just like a regular housefly.

Life Cycle of Fungus gnat

The life cycle of fungus gnats is shown in Figure 1. A female fungus gnat may lay up to 300 whitish eggs in clusters of 20 to 30 or more on the surface or in the crevices of moist soil or potting media rich in organic matter. Eggs hatch in about six days. Larvae feed for 12-14 days before changing into a pupa, which is formed inside a silken pupal chamber in the soil. The pupal stage may last 5-6 days and adults live up to 10 days. The life cycle from egg to adult requires approximately 4 weeks depending on temperature; development time decreases as temperatures increase, as is true of most insects.

mississippi said:

sounds like gnats, sand on top of soil 15mm or 3/4inch deep stops them,
sorry agan about befor, mite be right this time

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If you do use sand, make sure its sharp sand & washed. Childrens sandpit sand is usually good for this.(from out the store, not the childrens playground)

try this. Buy 3% hydrogen peroxide at your local grocery store. (it'll prolly be in a brown bottle and cost $2) Add a table spoon of that to every single watering. A) It kills gnat larve. B) It oxygenates your roots. A true win/win. I'd switch over to a mild dosage of high phospherous fert. and go into flowering. Some Bat Guanos fit the bill nicely. The plants look like they have more than enough nitrogen. This is what I bought: http://www.amazon.com/Sunleaves-Indonesian-Guano-Organic-Fertilizer/dp/B0001WV6GY

hey guys, thanks for the info, if you guys like rep, im tossing it around for everyone that drops a little useful info.

now onto the damn bugs....

yesterday when i saw them, they looked like what seem to maybe be aphids. nothing on any leaves or stem at all...just on the soil, and they really seem to like crawling on the rim of the pot when i disturb it, so i kept rotating the pot slowly, and killing them on the rim as they crawled out (i know this isnt going to get rid of them, but i figure every little bit helps). didnt want to flush them last night, as i just watered them, and wanted to really do some cleaning in my tent too...

today i woke up, and checked them out...the werent very many of the older looking tiny orangeish-brown ones at all, however, apparently, they reproduced, as now i saw a bunch of tiny tiny tiny white guys crawling around the rim of the pot...squashed them, and flushed with 6.8ph soap and water (i always ph after ive put anything into the water, right before it goes into the dirt...im pretty good with common sense, but i know sometimes newbies just dont think about certain things sometimes, so i appreciate the double checking, too). removed and washed my tent floor liner in the tub, and checked just about every area of the tent that i could for any other signs, but nothin...so it seems theyre pretty contained in the pots for now.

so now im thinking about ladybugs, even though they might not eat root aphids, if thats what i got, but i know they eat many other pests, and dont harm your plants, so might be good to have em around anyways? anyone know a good place to get them? (like a national chain store that sells gardening supplies or somewhere?)

i think im also going to pick up a magnifier at radio shack today, so ill see if i can get some pics for you guys so i can nail down what in the hell they are, and i can go from there....