Sunshine #4, low runoff pH problem

sskitze

Member
Hi,
I am using sunshine #4. I use general hydroponics micro/grow/bloom + hygrozyme and hormex. I am experiencing some mag & cal def. I'm watering with pH adjusted 6.3 water, and my runoff is coming out at 4.9. What should I do? My only experience is with hydro. I am trying soilless sunshine #4 for the first time, and can't seem to get it dialed in. please help. thanks!
 

oh really???

Well-Known Member
you can try. I have a 5.8 runoff with 6.7 going in. I would just flush with ph adjusted water till the drainage is desirable. Lime is something you should do for your next grow.
 

joshkrauss

Active Member
i use the sunshine mix #4 to and have had the same problems been trying to correct this is my 3rd grow and started with the sunshine mix. i used advanced nutrients sensi 2 plus with it and had awesome results all the way up to about the 4th or 5th week of flowering and started having the mag and calcium issues and i added calmag. this last time ive been doing organics and have had all kinds of problems with ph. i just started some new babies and mixed in 2 tbsp spoons of dolomite and added 2 parts of perilite to 6 parts sunshine and i have good drainage now, at first the runoff ph was higher than what i was putting in, i just flushed with 6.3 water until the runoff was 6.3. i know you cant add in the the perilite and dont know if you can add the lime now but for feature reference if you add extra perilite and some lime it has seemed to help those problems. this time around if you have the money i would flush with non ph distilled water from walmart or wherever and flush then go from there.
 

thinkkush

Active Member
Ph your water to 6.5 and flush your plants until the runoff becomes desirable. You may need to add several gallons of water.
 

sskitze

Member
Thanks for the help everyone, such a relief after trying on another board that wasn't so helpful.

Josh- that is about the same time i noticed my problems, mag and cal def.

I use 20 gal pots, so i don't want to transplant them into anything bigger. I mixed about 4 tablespoons of lime to about 10 gallons of water about a week ago. Today, I flushed again with about 10 gal of plain water, unadjusted w/ pH 7.1. A few hours later, I added another 5 gal of 1/2 strength nutes at pH 7.4, and got a runoff of 5.7. I think by the next time I water, i should be able to get my pH runoff right where I want it. I will definitely start mixing it into the sunshine every time before I transplant. I am starting at 2 tablespoons per 5 gallons of aggragate. Does that sound about right? I think I am going to also add perilite. What does perlite do to ph levels? How much perlite would you add per 5 gallons of sunshine?
 

oh really???

Well-Known Member
perlite is neutral in ph. . .i think. and i would add 1 gallon of perlite to your 5 gallons but that's just me. that would be 1 part perlite. i use 7 gallon pots and put 1 gallon of perlite per 3 gallons of happy frog but i also add 2 gallons of compost and 1 gallon of manure. with LIME.
 

sskitze

Member
I purchased a large bag of the bigger perlite and after playing with the ratio, decided on 1.5 gal of perlite to 5 gallons of sunshine #4 + 4 tablespoons of dolomite lime. We'll see what happens as we go..
 

sskitze

Member
i watered one of my plants today are already in flower, before i started changing my sunshine mix with the perlite and lime. I top dressed the 20 gallon pot w/ 4 tablespoons of lime a couple waterings ago. Today i watered w/ ph 6.7 and am getting a runoff of 5.4-5.5. I think I will need to be using ph 8.0 to get my runoff where it should be. I am starting to worry about feeding with such a high ph. what should i be more concerned about: ph going in, or ph coming out? is it bad to give it such a high ph in if it keeps coming out so low?
 

joshkrauss

Active Member
Id start with 2 or 3 table spoons for 5 gallons of sunshine mix. when you got everything dialed in the stuff is awesome. i started using chemical nutes and have moved onto organic and have had some of the same issues and still working on getting the kinks out, but the ones i started about 3 weeks ago i started 4 all different and used about 2 tablespoons they were kinda big scoops and they seem to be doing fine so far, so we will see what happens with them. i don't know if this is true but from what i am told if u use too much dolomite lime it can make your ph higher than what you want and make it kinda hard to get back in check.
 

oh really???

Well-Known Member
wait so i put 7 tablespoons of dolomite into my 7 gallon buckets. . . I read that this was okay but mow it seems too much. where did you get your info?
 
Hey
Been going through the same struggles. I have a bunch in 5 gallon smart pots and a bunch in 20 gallon trash cans. Sunhine 4 and advanced nutrients 2part with all additives. I used botanicare cal mag from the begining to buffer my RO water. During veg the first 4 weeks were perfect. Right towards the end of veg i started to get a strange pale yellowing wich i knew immediatly looked like a ph issue. I feed once a week with the recommended ppm from the medium feeding schedual on there web site and the rest of the feedings for the week w ph'd RO water. If i put in Water at 6.5 it comes out 5.5. Advanced keeps saying the same thing Sunshine is mixed in large batches and sometimes theres not enough lime. Ive been doing a lot of research and Jorge Cervantes says any mix with 30% or more peat should be fed with nutrients close to 7.0ph.
please post anymore info you guys have on the stuff
 
Straight from sun grow

Current research on pH in search of a ‘bloody’ mix
Growing media pH is a perennial subject of interest in our industry. One reason is that unlike mineral soils where plants grow naturally, peat mixes are not well buffered against pH changes. Another reason is that, again, unlike in natural conditions where plants can grow more roots in favorable pH zones, the limited volume of mix in containers exacerbates pH effects. Drastic pH changes upset plant quality (see an example in figure 1).
Though grower’s water, the fertilizer regime the grower is practicing and even the plant species being grown also affect pH, the growing medium is the first thing questioned when pH problems occur, because pH changes occur right in the medium.
Here, I present the latest research in the area of growing media pH. The information may fulfill your curiosity, your practical needs or just give you talking points about how industry is striving to manage materials to produce a better growing media.
Truck-wide variation
Peat is acidic and lime is added to neutralize some of that acidity and raise its pH. However, even when the same amount of lime is added to the same amount of peat every time, the resulting mix pH is not the same every time. The pH variation can be, as the famous remark goes— wide enough for the truck carrying the mix to go thro— from 5.0 to 7.0. Remember that pH scale is logarithmic: a pH of 5 is 10 times more acidic than pH of 6 and 100 times more acidic than 7. Therefore, the variation is wide. If your blood pH varies by just 0.2, problems occur in your body. Don’t worry, your body is so efficient, its buffer system kicks in and brings blood pH back to the original value in less than a minute. Don’t you wish your mix maintained pH like blood in your body? To build such a buffer system into a mix, first we should know what causes pH variation in mixes. So, we wanted to explore this further in a quantitative manner.
In 2001, we initiated and partially supported a research study at North Carolina State University. Soon Martin Marietta Technologies joined the study. This company is a derivative of the aerospace company but they are on the ground in the limestone business and probably produce most of the limestone in the world. Our idea was whether, with their resources, a horticultural lime could be devised. Though, like peat, transport is a major factor in lime business, a lime produced differently for horticulture could have a good market.
Peat dimensions
At first, when you joined the industry, you thought all peats looked the same, didn’t you? But you soon realized all peats are not the same all the time. Though it is called Sphagnum, there are various species that make up this genus. Further, within each species, peat can be at a different decomposition stage. Still more— one would expect that the water peat has been in contact with during its formation would influence its pH. The water could be groundwater or rain water. All these differences can affect peat’s inherent acidity that has to be neutralized. The question is which of these characters predict a peat’s requirement of how much lime?
During late 2002, nearly 500 peat samples were collected from different fields in Alberta bogs. In each sample, species were tediously separated and their percentages estimated. Their decomposition rate was also rated. The species content of Alberta peat varied. Why?
A natural bog is not flat. For example, Alberta bogs naturally have hummockhollow type topography and have major species occurring as shown in figure 2.
The differences in species correlate to differences in pH. Sphagnum fuscum on top of the hummock generally has a pH of 3.5. Sphagnum fuscum is horticulturally a best peat, because it has high water absorption capacity and decays slowly. Sphagnum megellanicum also absorbs water fast and retains it well, but decomposes quickly. Sphagnum angustifolium that is in the hollow has a pH of 4 to 5. There are also non-Sphagnums like sedges or debris, which not only have a higher pH, but also increase pH variability.
Why are there pH differences between Sphagnum species? All Sphagnum species have sites loaded with exchangeable hydrogen (acid) ions but the number of sites and the percent that are already saturated with bases vary. The saturation is influenced by how the species existed with respect to the water table. Sphagnum angustifolium, which is in the hollows, derives its moisture from water that is in contact with mineral soil. Such water has bases like calcium, magnesium, sodium, etc., which exchange places with hydrogen on peat. Therefore, angustifolium has a higher percent of its sites saturated with bases— so, less hydrogen or acid ions and higher pH. Sphagnum fuscum, which is on top of the hummock derives its moisture from precipitation only and there are few bases in rain water. Therefore, fuscum still has more hydrogen or acid ions, or lower pH.
What happens to pH as peat decomposes? Peats that are highly decomposed have high pH.
When the naturally undulating bog surface is made flat to allow for harvesting, each pass of harvester picks up variation in the species and decomposition, resulting in variation in peat pH (see figures 3a and 3b).
Further variation occurs over time as well. Because a field that has been harvested for a long time would have a different mix of species and different decomposition stages than a newly opened field. As an example, species content in different fields in a sample location are shown in figure 4. Such diagrams drawn for different fields can be used to know the homogeneity of peat and therefore predictability of pH variation.
You might expect a peat starting at a pH of 4.5 to reach a target of 5.8 with less lime than a peat starting at a pH of 3.5. You would think in the peat with pH 4.5, some acidity is already reduced by bases, so further neutralization requirement should be lower. There is some such relation between higher starting pH and lower lime requirement but the relation is not strong (just 20%). Why? A peat with a pH of 4.5 can still have a lot more number of sites available for bases than a peat with pH of 3.5. Confusing? Let us take an analogy of hotel vs. small motel. Info like 25 rooms occupied in each lodging (like pH value of each peat) gives you little information about how many rooms are still vacant— till you know the total capacity of each lodging. Even when bases like calcium and magnesium are extracted, a peat sample can yield greater quantity of bases (= more number of guests) and still have a lower pH (= lower percent occupancy).
To predict the lime requirement of a peat, one should determine the total capacity for base saturation and the percent of that capacity already saturated with bases. The correlation between increasing percent of base saturation and decreasing lime requirement is stronger (40%). The total capacity of a peat to hold bases is based on its cation exchange capacity, where cations (positively charged ions like hydrogen, calcium, magnesium) are swapped for one another.
A high cation exchange capacity generally imparts a high buffer capacity. During growing, a peat with high buffer capacity will have great ability to trade other cations for hydrogen ions that are coming from plants, fertilizers, microbial action, etc. Thus, that kind of peat resists pH drifts, which is a property we desire in a mix. Sphagnum fuscum seems to be a species with high buffer capacity.
Finally, we generally think hydrogen is the source of acidity in peat. But interestingly iron is found in Alberta peat. Iron bonds with hydroxide in water leaving acidic hydrogen ions in the solution. Variations in peat pH could be due to differing amounts of iron as well.
Lime dimensions
Lime costs <1% of the mix price. But the value and the headaches it brings are well known. Most lime companies primarily serve the construction market and to them agricultural lime is a byproduct. Consequently lime companies don’t have technical people knowledgeable of our industry. The burden is on us to decide whether their lime serves our purpose or not.
Lime has to dissolve to act and neutralize peat acidity. We generally agree that the size of a lime particle affects its solubility: smaller particles dissolve faster. That’s how agriculture lime is characterized now. Unfortunately, this is yet another time of getting into trouble when agriculture perceptions are transferred to horticulture. In agronomy, they have time. A slow rise in soil pH in 3-4 months and a residual lime effect that lasts for 3 years is ok in field crops. In greenhouse growing, we want rapid rise— in days if not hours and the residual effect for just 3-4 months. Our industry experience has been that the same amount of lime with the same sieve analysis (= particle size) doesn’t always give same pH in mixes. This result makes one suspect that particle size alone may not characterize horticultural lime sufficiently.
Nine lime samples from our production plants (some shown in figure 5) and 40 from Martin Marietta quarries were gathered. Among these limes, there were dolomites (contain calcium and magnesium carbonates) and calcites (contain just calcium carbonate). These samples were tested.
When these limes were reacted to find out how fast they react and neutralize acid, there were tremendous variations in dolomites coming from different sources. But there was very little or no variation between calcitic limes (thus indicating it is difficult to change dolomite sources and easier to change calcite sources). Smaller lime particles did react faster than larger particles. But the tremendous variations in reaction rates were not fully related to particle size alone. Particle size accounted for only half of the reaction rate of lime. This finding gives an explanation of how mix pH can vary despite using limes having the same sieve analysis if these limes are coming from different sources.
Same sized lime particles taken from different sources were reacted. Dolomites took longer time to react than calcites— 4 times longer on average. So, is reaction slower because of the presence of magnesium carbonate in dolomite? When limes were listed in the order of increasing magnesium carbonate content (which is the same as decreasing calcium carbonate content), magnesium carbonate content showed an influence on slowing the reaction rate but again the reaction rate was not fully related to magnesium/calcium content.
What other character of lime is influencing its neutralization capacity? Surface area of lime particles was measured. Same size lime particles from different sources had different surface areas— up to 5-fold difference. This tells that the exposed area on some lime particles is not just on the geometric surface and there is considerable internal surface. When viewed using a microscope (see the images in figure 6), lime particles that have low surface area appear smooth. But same sized particles from different sources that have high surface area have many ridges and valleys, which increase surface area. Since all the exposed area reacts with water, this means same sized lime particles from different sources can react differently.
So far, particle size, content, surface area account for 80% of the neutralization capacity of lime. These findings tell us that in addition to the sieve analysis and of course reaction rate, content and surface area should be included in the specs to further reduce the variability of lime.
More data on other lime characters is being analyzed to account for 100% of the neutralization capacity.
Matching peat-lime
The goal of the research is to find out which characters determine neutralization capacity of lime and which characters determine neutralization requirement of peat and then match them suitably. Like what the eHarmony guy says on the radio about profiling different dimensions of men and women before matching soul mates!
Continuing on the matchmaking analogy, you might be wondering: What about the chemistry after marriage—pH drift during growing? The properties mentioned above give information to predict pH changes during growing as well. For example, different reaction rates of limes give information on balancing initial pH of the mix with pH maintenance during its use. For simplicity, I presented here the effect of one factor at a time, as if other factors remain the same. In the real world, as you can imagine, the peat-lime reactions occur in multifaceted dimensions in space and time. But since the whole effect is a sum of its parts, depending on the situation, we can select and add or subtract relevant factors and evaluate the effect.
Research & further research
People in the industry should understand that large randomized, controlled research trials like this one are slow and frustrating at times. This study began in 2001, and conclusions after going through the vigilance of peer review, are just coming out. But imagine 500 peat samples, 50 lime samples sieved into 8 fractions, each sample studied in replications for many different characters. Just devising a test on how to measure a character took time. For example, how to measure the surface area of lime particle (dinitrogen gas was used as absorbate because the gas accesses the same areas of the particle as water does), what type of base to use to disassociate hydrogen ions from peat, etc.
Still, we should support research. Just on the subject of pH, we know pH brought on contentions, disputes and even litigations between people and between companies. During some of those times, following the explanations and remedies suggested by well meaning participants was like following the moves of mouse in a maze, due to lack of good information. Working in the field we especially know how lack of good information adds uncertainty to our interpretation of a situation. New insights from research will reduce the uncertainty.
The research initiated by Sun Gro, NC State University and Martin Marietta branched into different angles. In 2004, Dr. Paul Fisher of the University of New Hampshire, got the remains of the large collection of Alberta peat samples to find out whether plants can mine the iron in some of those peats (like people do in Caribou Mountains in Alberta). His research is supported by a consortium of grower organizations and USDA funded Professor Paul Nelson to find out why some crops like geraniums push the mix pH down. Apparently, the protein that transports nitrate in geranium roots is somehow inhibited which leads to geranium taking up nitrogen in the form of ammonium, which causes low pH in the mix.
All these studies will let us position the pieces properly in the pH jigsaw puzzle and ultimately result in great looking plants like the one in figure 7 all the time.
Listed below are 4 research papers from this study that have been published so far and more are forthcoming. The papers have detailed work for interested people:
1) “Specific surface versus particle diameter of limestones” by Janet Rippy et al. Presented at the American Society of Horticultural Science Conference in Austin, Texas on 19 July 2004.
2) “Soilless root substrate pH measurement technique for titration” by Janet Rippy and Paul Nelson, published in HortScience, February 2005.
3) “Lime specific surface versus particle size & Reaction times of twenty limestones” by Janet Rippy et al., to be published in Communications in Soil Science and Plant Analysis.
4) “Evaluation of limestone physical and chemical properties on neutralization capacity” by J. Rippy et al., presented at the International Symposium on Growing Media in Angers, France on 6 September 2005.
Janet Rippy and Professor Paul Nelson were the chief researchers. Former resident peat expert at Seba Beach, Tony Cable and botanist from Alberta, Jean McDonald helped in peat sampling and identification. Bryology Professor Dale Vitt from Southern Illinois University Carbondale participated in the peat background discussions. David Jahn from Martin Marietta helped in lime sampling, analyses and discussions. Tech specialists from all the regions helped in getting lime samples. Mark Spong supported the study.
~Shiv Reddy
Key Words: Issue 3, Volume 3 | Category: Sun Gro Technical Articles
 
Technical Position on pH of Unused Media
Posted by Dan Jacques on November 10th, 2005 12:02 pm
Maintaining a proper growing medium pH is important in achieving a high quality crop and has received a tremendous amount of attention in the horticultural press. Much of the information suggests maintaining a narrow growing medium pH range. Consequently, we often receive requests from customers requiring or “guaranteeing” growing media with a narrow pH range or specific pH when it arrives at their greenhouse/ production facilities. Acceptance or rejection of a shipment is often contingent on meeting this guaranteed pH or narrow pH range.
The use of limestone is the principle means of adjusting initial medium pH. While initial medium pH is an important aspect for the addition of lime there are also other important aspects for the addition of lime. All these factors are considered in the development of the lime source and rate used. It is very important that we help our customers understand the many purposes of adding limestone to potting media.
• Initial pH adjustment—To bring the pH of the finished product within a more suitable range for growing crops in a soilless media, most experts suggest maintaining a medium pH within 5.6—6.2 for optimal nutrient availability. Although specific recommendations vary, a pH of 5.5 to 6.5 would be considered acceptable. Dolomitic limestone is more “forgiving” in hitting a specific pH target.
• Buffering effect—The addition of lime helps to buffer the medium pH, or reduce drastic changes (rises or falls) that would occur otherwise due to the limited buffering capability of most growing media. Dolomitic limestone has been found to offer a better ‘residual” influence on buffering medium pH—a consideration often forgotten. Generally speaking, the acidic reactions of fertilization will tend to decrease the pH of a growing medium over time and the use of dolomitic limestone resists that change.
• To supply additional Calcium AND Magnesium for the duration of the crop cycle (2-3 months) time. As we all know, Mg is often lacking in a nutritional program. Dolomitic limestone contains both Calcium and Magnesium.
For the above reasons, Sun Gro has adopted the use of dolomitic limestone. Dolomitic limestone is the liming agent of choice. We have found that the use of a dolomitic limestone at a consistent rate targeting a pH range (rather than a specific pH) is the best all-around means of getting a crop started on the right track.
Sun Gro formulates growing media products to fall within a targeted pH range after being “wet out”, which means the mix has been moistened sufficiently to assure that the lime reaction will proceed efficiently. Even after “wet out” the medium pH typically takes at least two days to stabilize from the limestone addition alone and may take up to 2 weeks to be fully reacted. But why is that?
For dolomitic limestone to “react” and adjust growing medium pH, three criteria need to be met: proper moisture, time and temperature.
• Moisture content—Mixes are produced at 35-50% moisturemoisture does affect solubility of lime. Limestone must be solubilized in order to “react”. The moisture content of unused growing media is usually not high enough for the liming reaction to come to full stabilization.
• Time of delivery—It takes a period of 2-3 weeks after production for pH to completely stabilize under typical greenhouse growing conditions. Delivery of products in relation to time of production vary, therefore it is difficult to predict pH levels at time of delivery.
• Temperature—Product may be exposed to freezing temperatures in transit which will affect the lime reactivity and it’s ability to increase pH.
This means that growers who make decisions on the pH of unused growing medium are making decisions on media where the liming reaction in many cases has not come to “reasonable completion”.
There are many points that need to be considered when attempting to assure a proper medium pH range— Considerations that Sun Gro employs and monitors during formulating and producing our growing medium products…
We have conducted extensive research to determine the best rate and particle size of dolomitic limestone to adjust pH over time, while providing adequate Ca and Mg and buffering capacity for the duration of the crop cycle.
• Lime is routinely inspected when it is received and before use in growing media.
• We have several checks and balances in our production facilities to ensure that the quantity of lime added to the media is accurate and consistent.
• Dosage and run rates are recorded for each product run and kept on file for review by the quality control coordinator, production manager and technical specialists.
There are two more things that need to be considered. Firstly, how you measure pH. The method of pH measurement has a profound effect on the pH reading of a mix. This is a well-known and documented fact. Sun Gro employs the 2:1 distilled water to soil method of preparing mixes for pH measurement using state-of-the-art and well accepted pH measuring equipment. Deviating from this method invariable causes differing pH readings which then may lead to the incorrect disposition on the suitability of a mix. Secondly, and almost as significant, the irrigation solution applied to the crop affects the medium pH and often has the primary effect on medium pH. Growers need to be aware of the influence their fertilization program has on the medium pH before arbitrarily judging where the pH of an unused medium needs to be. Logically, the most reasonable way to assess the suitability of a growing medium is to wet out the mix with the irrigation solution to be used and measure medium pH using a standard method after 2 to 3 days.
The question asked in many cases is if the lime source or rate can be tailored to their particular situation. Sun Gro can offer the customer reduced or increased lime mixes: however, the grower should understand that there will not likely be a great rise or fall in pH with increased lime addition and a lower buffering effect on pH with a decrease in lime addition.
It is our general recommendation that growers adjust their fertility regime (including water quality control) rather than the lime rate in the mix. Only when the grower is unable to adjust their fertility regime to control pH should there be a change in the lime rate.
~Prepared by the Sun Gro Technical Team (Zoel Gautreau, Dan Jacques, Kathryn Louis, Nancy Morgan, Connie Proceviat, Shiv Reddy, Mark Thomas, Rick Vetanovetz, Ron Walden

Key Words: Issue 3, Volume 3 | Category: Sun Gro Technical Articles
 
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