AB 390 gets enough signatures for a vote!

theloadeddragon said:

I don't have to get a god damn permit to grow my own tomatoes, or basil or ginger.......or Bay Leaf or Manzanita or sour berries....... or chamomile etc.

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That's just not true. If you're going to be cultivating any of those products commercially you need permits to start that business.

theloadeddragon said:

This law grants nothing.... but strips us of soooo much....... that we already have to loose.... that we have fought so hard to gain, or at least to force the government to realize that we already have!

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The law grants the ability to have an ounce of bud legally. It also gives the ability to buy commercial permits for selling or cultivating cannabis. It doesn't take away anything. It has no effect on current medical laws. My medical grow is still perfectly legal with no additional permit necessary.

You're speaking in generalizations. What specifically does this bill take away from us?

theloadeddragon said:

And you are all just lining up to turn in your freedoms...... like your freedom of Choice!

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Seriously, show me where it takes away ANY freedom. Most people I know would be stoked to legally be able to carry a Z without having to worry about getting a ticket.

This bill is not perfect. No legalization bill will be perfect. But you're letting the perfect become the enemy of the good. This is progress. If you disagree, show us specifically why.

theloadeddragon said:

Everyone says "Tax it, Tax it!"

Why?

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By taxing it you get the support of people who are indifferent to marijuana legalization.

There are a large number of Californian's who don't care either way about the legalization of marijuana but do care about the economy and understand the taxation of marijuana could bring the state much needed income. Marketing legalization as a new tax on marijuana is the way you get those people to support legalization.

When legalization is presented to Californians as a Tax and regulate bill the majority support it. It's that simple.

Your thinking is just not realistic here. It's important to find a way to gain support for legalization even if that means passing an imperfect bill. If you're going to hold out for the perfect bill it's never going to happen.

Holding out for an all out perfect bill is foolish. Real change usually comes in increments, not all at once. This is a step forward.

AB390 passed the safety committee today! (4-3)
The Health committee hearing deadline is this Friday.
Which most likely won't happen within the time parameters.
But, come this November we will still get that vote!

there is no regulations on growing blackberries or any of the aforementioned plants. I checked. Not even if you plan to distribute them for profit. The only taxes that would be paid is on GAINS!

The only permits necessary, are normal business operating permits, nothing like what AB 390 is proposing. Otherwise the amendments wouldn't be made specifically for pot, and cannabis would simply be declared legal. The bill is reckless and wasteful.

Doesn't take anything away but the ability of small businesses to capitalize on the market, or even grow a quality product at an affordable cost, as apposed to the corporate interests that are ready to usurp the small businesses.

I have been in the floral industry for a number of years. And spread around through out various commercial industries for years. This bill is very similar to the bills that were proposed by FTD back in the 80s.

Now FTD and similar corporate interests rule the floral industry, fucking over the growers (which moved out of country, whence before growing was much more common here), and fucking over the small businesses they claim to be helping.... lol, helping themselves to the small businesses clientel!

And all the small businesses jumped on board following the hype.

Taxation and regulation is NOT legalization, it is further decriminalization. I still don't think you have read the bill. Criminal penalties would still be applicable and practiced (cant release all those prisoners and crumble our inflated prison industry now can we?). It says it right in the bill.

Medicinal growers would still be required to acquire permits to grow, and fall within whatever regulations are determined to be put into place......

For some reason you are all still under the impression that Democracy and Monetary Capitalism are synonymous. So long as you continue to believe so, they will rage against each other until there isn't much left of our society, or our Nation. Because Monetary Capitalism consumes, and consumes. Just as greed does. Moral Capitalism shines amongst Democracy...... but that is a Side of economics I doubt very many have learned about or taken the time to really understand.

Obviously, this bill is about a hell of a lot more than just pot. Pot is the Hype there to grab you, to get you to follow and support. NORML is a for profit, so is OU..... and many other shaded benefactors of the bill (Big Tobacco for example).


Because Everyone is forgetting one essential fact:

Cannabis is a FOOD. Cannabis has Nutritional value. Cannabis is a Produce. Agricultural produce is already regulated.

Backers of the initiative on Thursday turned in nearly 700,000 signatures to state officials to place the measure on the state ballot, according to reports — far more than the 433,971 valid signatures required. California Secretary of State Debra Bowen has until June 24 to certify the initiative, the Sacramento Bee reports. [NORML]

The Loaded Dragon has a good point. Legal and taxed is not as good as legal and left the fuck alone. I agree with that.

Legal and taxed may be better than illegal and going to jail, but it isn't the best option. Freedom is always the best option.

Inviting more government into our lives is not what I want. Weren't they the fuckers that caused prohibition in the first place? Will they be sending their sympathies to all the people jailed and robbed for smoking a plant and trying to own their own bodies, when this becomes "kinda sorta legal"? Be careful when you wish for more government. Why am I not surprised that government now wants a piece of the $$$ pie?

Then it will stay illegal period.
There has to be some compromise at first.
I for one would be happy to carry a ounce and just get a ticket.

Mindmelted said:

Then it will stay illegal period.
There has to be some compromise at first.
I for one would be happy to carry a ounce and just get a ticket.

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Legal with restrictions is better than illegal I agree... in much the same way that a kick in the balls is preferred over a bullet in the head.

I don't know that I'be happy until they butt out of my life completely though. It's NOBODY'S business what another grows, smokes, eats etc. as long as they aren't forcing themselves on another. Government is ALWAYS about force.

Rob Roy said:

The Loaded Dragon has a good point. Legal and taxed is not as good as legal and left the fuck alone. I agree with that.

Legal and taxed may be better than illegal and going to jail, but it isn't the best option. Freedom is always the best option.

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Sure, that's the best option. But it's not something the majority support so it's not a realistic option. I'll take something that can actually happen over something that is better in theory but won't happen.

Rob Roy said:

Inviting more government into our lives is not what I want.

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Tax and regulate doesn't invite more government into our lives. It invites a different side of government into our lives while removing another part of government.

As much as I don't want the IRS in my life I prefer the IRS to the DEA/police/prison system.

Government and politics is almost never about getting what you want. It's about picking the lesser of two evils. The IRS is lesser evil than the prison system.

theloadeddragon said:

there is no regulations on growing blackberries or any of the aforementioned plants. I checked. Not even if you plan to distribute them for profit. The only taxes that would be paid is on GAINS!

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My uncle owns a large strawberry farm. He does indeed need permits and the health inspector does visit to make sure he is complying with health code regulations. Not sure where you're getting your info from but if you sell food commercially, there are regulations.

theloadeddragon said:

The only permits necessary, are normal business operating permits, nothing like what AB 390 is proposing. Otherwise the amendments wouldn't be made specifically for pot, and cannabis would simply be declared legal. The bill is reckless and wasteful.

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The permit system in AB390 and Tax and Regulate Cannabis 2010 are virtually identical as far as I can tell. Even the permit costs are the same I believe.

I'm not at all apposed to AB390. It's just not likely to pass a floor vote.

theloadeddragon said:

Doesn't take anything away but the ability of small businesses to capitalize on the market, or even grow a quality product at an affordable cost, as apposed to the corporate interests that are ready to usurp the small businesses.

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What in Tax and Regulate usurps small businesses?

theloadeddragon said:

Now FTD and similar corporate interests rule the floral industry, fucking over the growers (which moved out of country, whence before growing was much more common here), and fucking over the small businesses they claim to be helping.... lol, helping themselves to the small businesses clientel!

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From AB390:

25401. (a) The department shall license commercial cultivators of
marijuana. The fee for the license shall be set at an amount that
will reasonably cover to costs of assuring compliance with the
regulations to be issued, but may not exceed five thousand dollars
($5,000) for an initial application, or two thousand five hundred
dollars ($2,500) per year for each annual renewal.

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If you think AB390 doesn't heavily regulate and require expensive permits, you need to read it again.

theloadeddragon said:

Taxation and regulation is NOT legalization, it is further decriminalization.

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If you think AB390 provides ANY more legalization than Tax and Regulate than please quote the bill. You're still speaking in generalizations.

theloadeddragon said:

I still don't think you have read the bill.

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I've read AB390 and Tax and Regulate. The wording in both is virtually the same. AB390 is slightly more specific, but they are almost identical. If you dispute this than show me specific facts instead of speaking in generalizations and assumptions.

theloadeddragon said:

Criminal penalties would still be applicable and practiced (cant release all those prisoners and crumble our inflated prison industry now can we?). It says it right in the bill.

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If that's true it should be easy to show me.

theloadeddragon said:

Medicinal growers would still be required to acquire permits to grow, and fall within whatever regulations are determined to be put into place......

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Your doctors recommendation is your permit, just like now. I don't see what freedom is being taken away.

theloadeddragon said:

For some reason you are all still under the impression that Democracy and Monetary Capitalism are synonymous.

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I've never said anything of the sort nor given any indication that I believe this. Please do not put words that I've never said in my mouth.

theloadeddragon said:

but that is a Side of economics I doubt very many have learned about or taken the time to really understand.

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That is unnecessarily condescending. Get off your soap box.

theloadeddragon said:

Obviously, this bill is about a hell of a lot more than just pot. Pot is the Hype there to grab you, to get you to follow and support. NORML is a for profit, so is OU.....

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No shit. But guess what? We don't live in your libertarian utopia fantasy world. We live in the real world where money talks.

Legalization isn't going to happen without money behind it. That's how our government works. Very few things happen in this country because it's "the right thing to do". Things usually happen here because there is a financial incentive. Right now the financial incentive for making cannabis legal is becoming stronger than the financial incentives for keeping it illegal.

To think cannabis is going to become legal for any other reason than for people to profit off of it is naive and foolish.