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Reply With Quotewith all your testing have you found one that stands up to the hid lights ? thats the only way I would consider running t5's or led's although I have thought about led for veg but I just don't think it will compare to the MH.
Advanced Lighting Spectrums for T5 Floro and LED
I've been doing multiple, multiple tests for the last few months with about 10 different T5 fixtures, LEDs and other light sources to understand what the different wavelengths do for cannabis strains. The tests are not done(probably never will be), but I've been able to at least come up with a few solid answers since there is so little information out there that is specifically designed around the herb.
First off, it is possible to grow really really good meds using only blue 460nm and red 660nm wavelengths. It just doesn't work for every strain. The ratios I have found to work the best(Weezard would agree) 3:1 for Veg, or 2:1 for shorter internode spacing, and 5:1 for flower, or 4:1 for shorter internode spacing.
I believe UVb light can be helpful for terpene production in the last few weeks of budding to increase flavor, smell, potency, but are useless anytime before the last 3 weeks of flower. This goes for any light wave lower than 450nm. Also, it has been found that 450nm will increase terpene/thc production as it is close to the deep blue wavelength. So it really is not necessary to add UVb into your grow. Your eyes will thank me.
I have found that different strains react very differently to the color of the overall blend of light source. This information has been backed up by others and is tried and true:
Sativa's prefer more blue light throughout the veg cycle and into the flower cycle. They can handle an increase of blue light without presenting any kind of weird growth issues, such as mutated twisted leaves, or irregular growth patterns.
Indica's prefer the red side of the spectrum. I found my Indica's to be very overly sensitive to blue wavelengths when used in a high ratio. The abundance of blue light will cause irregular growth patterns and will decrease yield dramatically if not corrected. They can also handle more red during flowering without getting over driven by the deeper red wavelengths.
There are a lot of misconceptions on the internet about the proper spectrum. The charts for photosynthesis and light absorption are based on Algae and the pigments and chemicals themselves within the plant. Trying to use the information for cannabis can get a little sketchy at times.
I have found it to be true that 630nm light can be nicely substituted for 660nm during the veg cycle. Although it is not as rapidly absorbed as the deeper red, it still has plenty of red energy that the plants use in abundance. I would at least try to keep a little 660nm in your light spectrum during the veg cycle. Your plants will thank you later. Having 630nm light in your spectrum throughout the whole growth cycle can be useful if you have and abundance of deep red light. The 630nm wavelength will balance out an over-abundance of 660nm wavelength. If there is more 660nm light than the plants can handle, photosynthesis will shut down and your plants will take on a phosphorus lockout look. Leaves get thick, turn yellow and claw. Growth slows and stems become purple. This is easily reversed by backing the red wavelengths off your spectrum a little. Also, it can be fixed by raising your lights.
Although many still disagree, 550nm green wavelengths can be helpful for some cannabis strains. When light irradiation is high(much red spectrum) the green will help the plants absorb the red wavelengths more efficiently. I think this is similar to how the 630nm wavelength helps to balance out the 660nm and slightly higher wavelengths. I've heard some people call the 550nm "the catalyst" of spectrum.
The 730nm wavelength has been known for some time to help generate Pfr more rapidly when in the flower cycle. Having 730nm in your light source during flower will speed up the budding process and assist with calyx production and growth rate. It has also been known for some time that in combination with deep red(660-680) will increase growth speed 2 fold.
T5 High Output Floro's:
There are a few German manufacturer's and a few U.S. ones that have been making T5 colored tubes for the aquarium industry for quite some time. The Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 is one good example. When properly blended, the floro tubes can achieve very closely to what the most latest LED technology has done. By increasing the wavelengths highly absorbed by cannabis plants, growth, health and quality are all increased as well as a huge power savings for you. The only drawback to the T5's are the lack of penetration since it is not a focused light beam. Reflectors can help some, but LEDs still have the upper hand.
LEDs:
As newer technology is being released in the LED world, we are seeing higher powered LEDs, dense matrix arrays, and an increase in overall efficiency. This is good. If you want to grow tall bushes and trees, the 10w LEDs are the ticket. If you are into building your own LED fixture then this thread is for you. Proper wavelength blending is of the utmost importance when dealing with so few High Power LEDs on a single panel.
This thread's focus will mainly be about light spectrum and other people's experiences with their own blends of wavelengths and not so much the "type" of light source. Keep the arguing about T5 vs. LED or HID to a minimum please. They are all fine sources of light. Light is light no matter what you may think.
Sit back, relax and you will see the light.
with all your testing have you found one that stands up to the hid lights ? thats the only way I would consider running t5's or led's although I have thought about led for veg but I just don't think it will compare to the MH.
Would you give me your opinion on my lamp selection for a T5 4x4 lamp fixture.
For Veg either 2 ZooMed Flora Suns, 1 Wave Point Blue Wave and 1 Reef Wave or instead of the Wave Points use 1 UVL Super Actinic and 1 UVL 454 Ultra Blue.
For Flower 2 ZooMed Flora Suns and 2 UVL Red Suns.
No doubt you have seen countless threads using inferior T5 and especially LEDs. Both are capable of bettering MHs, it's just that commercial offerings are way behind the tech.Originally Posted by bluntmassa1
Unfortunately, RIU is having some issues, both with posting comments and uploading photos, or I would have posted a few pics of my HO T5s that are roughly one week from harvest. Thought it was going to be over this past weekend, but the trics aren't turning amber just yet. Last Friday's pics are in my journal
Last edited by PetFlora; 07-16-2012 at 09:57 AM.
http://www.rollitup.org/drain-waste-...ing-320-a.html
[/url]Stripping Back the BS. Vegging 6 Clones under 22w http://www.rollitup.org/led-other-li...s-vegging.html
I don't agree with all Fonz says in his opening comments, but he is in the ball park.
Places we diverge
1. All plants need/want some 500-600 nms. Combined they act as a catalyst to the other ends of the spectrum
2. Too much 660 can be overkill during veg. 630 is better all the way through, however, during mid-late flower then crank up the 660
3. Not sold on 10w LEDs for trees. rhe potential for bleaching is high. For sure you will have to keep the fixture a lot higher above the canopy. Pretty sure 3-5 watt supplemented with 1-3w side lighting will perform as well or better.
As far as which strain prefers more red than blue, I think it's the opposite. Indicas grow higher above the equator where there is less red, the opposite for Sats. NOW, it could be because both are somewhat lacking in the respective spectrums that they want/need them and respond positively. Dunno. Anybody?
LEDs
The new CREEs Neutral and Warm white may well be all one needs from seedling to harvest. There is a least one grower on another site doing a grow now. The reason why it hasn't been done before was efficiency, but that has taken a giant leap forward. Others are sure to follow
PSUAGRO found a new Osram aquarium light that is designed more like a light bulb- the leds are mounted on a disc (think bulb) that screws/unscrews into a base that is part of the fixture. At last, the ultimate in flexibility
Last edited by PetFlora; 07-16-2012 at 10:06 AM.
http://www.rollitup.org/drain-waste-...ing-320-a.html
[/url]Stripping Back the BS. Vegging 6 Clones under 22w http://www.rollitup.org/led-other-li...s-vegging.html
250w of high power LEDs will outmatch a 400w and maybe a 600w MH or HPS as long as it is built correctly. I believe you would need at least 400w of LEDs to outmatch a 1000w HID. At that point the expense makes it unreasonable unless you DIY. I have found it to be pretty close to 2:1 in favor of fine tuned spectrum LED light. There are a lot of B.S. LED grow lights on the market and it has been confusing a lot of people. Right now, the best way to grow with LEDs is to DIY. There are a few companies using 5w high power LEDs but the real mccoy is in the 10w and higher LEDs. The higher the power the more penetration you get from any light source.
When LED lighting first came out I knew it was a scam, but things have changed now with the high power LEDs.
Floro's will grow higher quality, shorter, healthier plants during the veg stage as long as you fine tune the light spectrum using special T5 lamps. Since the light from floro's does not penetrate as much as HID lights do, it makes it almost impossible to grow larger trees with them. For a SOG setup, I would choose floro's over HID in a second. If VHO floro's lasted a long time I would even go that route, but they do not last much longer than 6 months. At $10-$20 a pop for fancy T5 VHO lamps, it's not worth it. You can overdrive any T5 HO lamp in a VHO fixture, but it will decrease the life of the lamp in half. I have found there to be no difference between HO and VHO as far as build quality goes. VHO is a labeling scam AFAIK.
The reason you can outmatch HID lighting watt to watt with LEDs is because the spectrum is fine tuned for light absorption. MH have an abundance of green and yellow light and very very little deep red. Cannabis plants do not use green and yellow light in abundance. A lot of the light from MH is wasted photons. Plants are mostly responding to the high quantity of blue light in MH's. For example, I have done a test combining 128w of Deep red LED light with a 175w 6.5k MH and I got the most outstanding growth through veg AND into flower.
I have actually been flowering with a 6.5k 175w metal halide when in combination with 128w of Kessil 128w deep red LED light. In no way do I want to promote Kessil LED lights, but they do make for a convenient source of supplemental lighting. I would compare my 175w MH + 128w deep red LED setup to a 600w HPS light except for the fact that my plants do not stretch and have much more color, smell and flavor in the buds.
You can do amazing things when fine tuning the spectrum with any light source. LEDs are not a special type of light. Remember, light is light no matter what the source.
I said this in the opening post already. I even used your word "catalyst."
As long as your spectrum is balanced out with the proper amount of blue light, 660nm will AWAYS absorb more efficiently than 630nm. It's a fact. 630nm light will help to balance out the spectrum if there is an over-abundance of 660nm. This is where you will see "bleaching" is when the spectrum is not balanced out properly.
This statement is completely false. Bleaching? This is what happens when your spectrum is improperly balanced with the wrong wavelengths. How do you know this will happen with 10w LEDs specifically? Have you done a DIY already? I have seen the best growth so far with 15w LEDs and higher. People are even using 80w and higher dense matrix LEDs and having outstanding growth with them. They are growing trees with them because they can penetrate through the canopy.
You "think" it's the opposite, but you are wrong. Think about how all terrestrial plants absorb the blue and red wavelengths more efficiently than the green and yellow wavelengths. It's because there is less of the red and blue in the Sun's spectrum, that's why plants absorb it more efficiently. Indica's grow higher above the equator so there will be an abundance of BLUE light. This is why they absorb RED light more efficiently. Opposite for Sativas. I've done the testing already so please try it first before saying how it is. My Cali-O Sativa cannot get enough blue light, but when there is more red, the leaves get mottled and growth stops. This has been backed up by others.
I've seen this thread you are talking about. They are using 80w high powered dense matrix LED lights and higher. The reason they are having such good results with them is because THEY ARE 80w from a single point light source. The reason the neutral and warm white work is because of the spectrum. Have you even seen the spectral output of them? It's one giant spike at 460nm or 440nm(depending on type) and then a huge curve from 550nm up to 740nm. They still waste photons however, due to the abundance of green and yellow light in the spectrum, but they do cover the whole spectrum unlike HPS. You don't need more green and yellow in your spectrum, you need more red and deep red. Yes, the warm whites and neutrals work on their own, but so does a HPS and MH.
I think you need to read more closely to fully understand and do more research. I've already seen proof that backs up what I said so it's no longer a theory. Any time you fine tune your spectrum for your plants, you will achieve maximum growth potential.
Last edited by Fonzarelli; 07-16-2012 at 10:42 AM.
[QUOTE=Fonzarelli;7720217]250w of high power LEDs will outmatch a 400w and maybe a 600w MH or HPS as long as it is built correctly. I believe you would need at least 400w of LEDs to outmatch a 1000w HID. At that point the expense makes it unreasonable unless you DIY. I have found it to be pretty close to 2:1 in favor of fine tuned spectrum LED light. There are a lot of B.S. LED grow lights on the market and it has been confusing a lot of people. Right now, the best way to grow with LEDs is to DIY. There are a few companies using 5w high power LEDs but the real mccoy is in the 10w and higher LEDs. The higher the power the more penetration you get from any light source. When LED lighting first came out I knew it was a scam, but things have changed now with the high power LEDs. QUOTE]
I don't know I watched a video on youtube it was mr. blue goo he did a side by side grow he had 600 watt, 1,000 watt and leds and the buds from the led lights where noticebly smaller and not as tight even the ones directly under the lights so I'm really not convinced leds can do better. the guy grew them all the same way their was a slight difference between the 600 and 1,000 but a big difference with the leds you can search for it on youtube just search mr. blue goo led it should pop up
First off, what strains are you growing? I have tried what you are suggesting doing with the same lamps. If you alternate florasun, 454, florasun, 454, it will work for sativas, but it's way more blue than you should be using. Florasuns are half blue, half red so that means your red/blue ratio will be 1:3 Red to Blue. You really want it to be the opposite. I would get the UVL 660's and use them. Right now I have a 4-lamp fixture with 2 UVL 660's, 1 florasun, 1 blue 454. It's doing really well. The ratio is around 2:1 Red to Blue. You can get by with the RedSuns in place of the 660nm, but getting some 660nm in your spectrum will really make your plants happy.
You need to look at the spectral output of your lamps you are using. You will see that there is little difference in between lamp manufacturers. Some lamps have a mix of pure blue along with a tri-band white spectrum. This helps to dull down the blue lamps as the pure blue lamps can easily dominate the spectrum in your fixture especially if you have no pure-red lamps in your fixture.
Last edited by Fonzarelli; 07-16-2012 at 10:44 AM.
[QUOTE=bluntmassa1;7720318]You can see the difference with your eyes. Whatever LED light he's using is blue heavy. Any idea what the red/blue ratio is on the LED fixtures he's using? For flowering you want at least a 5:1 red/blue ratio or you will get stunted growth in flowering. I will post photos of my DIY LED fixture when I get it completed so you can see what the proper light blend will look like if done correctly.
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