PPM, EC, CF ... Aeroponics ... Help!

GreenphoeniX

Well-Known Member
Hey all!

I'm new to all this hydro and aero stuff, I'm running a basic aero system and would like to get the most out of it in future.

The whole issue of PPM, EC, CF is confusing me. I think the most commonly used is PPM, but any info would be appreciated!

I was hoping someone could give me some info on about what levels are recommended to use (for trying out) - I understand it's very strain depending and also dependent on the plants age.
If you could just give me some guides/advice on the issue I would be most appreciative!

Feel free to ask further questions about this as I understand I may not have explained the question in the most clear sort of way lol

Cheers all!
 

GreenphoeniX

Well-Known Member
Gutted nobody helped out with this one, I'm sure many new hydro and aero growers ask about it. Although nothing useful showed up in the searches I did, I would still think a lot of people would want to know about it lol.

Anyway, I've managed to sort it out now!

Cheers.
 

morrisgreenberg

Well-Known Member
part per million, the ec is electric conductivity, they both measure dissolved salts in your mixture, higher the number higher the concentration, i personally use PPm meter, im sure without a meter you started out feeding your plant 1/4 or half strength nutes right? well measure ur nutes up like you usually do and stick your meter in there and see what it reads, find out what reading your plants can handle and go from there, piece o cake
 

GreenphoeniX

Well-Known Member
part per million, the ec is electric conductivity, they both measure dissolved salts in your mixture, higher the number higher the concentration, i personally use PPm meter, im sure without a meter you started out feeding your plant 1/4 or half strength nutes right? well measure ur nutes up like you usually do and stick your meter in there and see what it reads, find out what reading your plants can handle and go from there, piece o cake
Question may be a bit confusing or unclear.

I know ppm is parts per million etc etc. Was just wondering what the best levels are ... But I've got it pretty sorted now. My measuring device works in EC, CF, ppm [EC x 500] and ppm [EC x 700] so I've got my choice of which units I wish to measure it in haha.

But cheers for your input man, I really appreciate it!
 

choempi

Well-Known Member
Question may be a bit confusing or unclear.

I know ppm is parts per million etc etc. Was just wondering what the best levels are ... But I've got it pretty sorted now. My measuring device works in EC, CF, ppm [EC x 500] and ppm [EC x 700] so I've got my choice of which units I wish to measure it in haha.

But cheers for your input man, I really appreciate it!

Well the thing is, everyone is throwing ppm numbers around all the time and yet no one adds exactly what conversion they are using, so how can info be shared in this way?
 

fatman7574

New Member
The real deal on EC, TDS and ppm. First you need to know there is the true ppm based upon the actual mass (weight) of the salts actually in your liquid concentrate fertilizer. When you read a label of guaranteed analysis and it says something like NPK 10:5:10 that means by mass (weight) of the actual salts present. this is easily converted to true ppm by multiplying each number by 100. ie a guaranteed analysis of 10 is 1000 ppm. When that manufacturers states that at a solution at so much per gallon or liter will produce a mix with say Nitrogen 200 ppm, Phosphorus 100 ppm and Potassium 100 ppm it is NOT the same reading that you see when you use a meter. They are a basing the ppm levels on the actual amount of each salt on a gram per liter of water basis.

A meter provides a reading based on electrical conductivity and then uses a preprogrammed conversion factor to provide a reading of TDS or ppm based on electrical conductivity of the combined slats in the solution. This is not a true ppm measurement. If you actually put say 100 ppm by weight pr volume of six different common fertilizer ions in six separate solution jars you would get six different EC readings. Only one of those readings would possibly read 100 ppm. That is because the meters TDS or PPM output readings are based upon the electrical conductivity of just one specific ion at 100 ppm concentration by weight for a specific volume of solution. Each ion conducts electrical energy which different levels of efficiency. This means each will give a different reading even though in reality all the solution samples really contain 100 ppm by actual mass concentration for the volume of solution. So really all an EC meter give you is a best guess approximation of what is there based upon the electrical conductivity of all the ions combined even though they all conduct electricity at different efficiencies. Simply put it gives you no idea of how much of any specific fertilizer ions are in the solution or even an accurate estimate of how much is there in entirety.

For am example: you can have a liquid fertilizer concentrate that has say 3800 grams per liter of salts in it. That means specifically and truly 3800 ppm.

However you can use an EC meter and get a reading of 3.0 or a CF of 30. The meter will if it is a 0.70 conversion meter may say that the TDS or ppm is 2100. In reality the ppm is 3800, but an EC meter is not an ion specific meter so its simply provides a math based best guess estimate based upon electrical conductivity of all the combined salts.

So when you mix up your nutrients with the hope of giving them say a TDS of 750 ppm and you add the fertilizer based on the ppm of the fertilizer that is bad based upon actual concentrations by nmass you will not get a reading of 750 ppm on your EC meter when you put it in the solution. You will get a lower number. How much lower the number will be is based upon the ratios of the salts actually in the fertilizer.

What all of this really means is an EC meter is just a tool that makes things easier to get repeated same results without having to measure with a measuring cup and it gives a good estimate of the rough approximation of what is till in your reservoir after is use for a while.. But it does not in any way supply you with an accurate number as to just how much fertilizer is really in your solution.

In reality the way to mix your fertilizer is to mix it by the directions for the ppm you desire and then take an EC reading. If you mixed in enough fertilizer to get a 750 ppm reading and you get a reading on your EC meter that says 550 do not add more fertilizer. Just make a note in you log book, or on the fertilizer zero bottle that true 750 ppm is equal to an EC meter reading of 550 ppm. Next time you top of your reservoir orr mix a new reservoir of fertilizer you do not m need to measure by weight or volume but merely add more fertilizer until you get the EC meter reading of 550 ppm. you will then if it sis afresh batch it is truly 750 ppm concentration. If it is a topped of reservoir you will know it is close as you can estimate to the true 750 ppm.

As far as how much nutrients to use at different stages of growth just use something like the General Hydroponics nutrient calculator but use about half to 2 two thirds of what they recommend as they are pretty heavy handed with the amounts they tend to recommend.

http://www.genhydro.com/calculator/index.html
 

choempi

Well-Known Member
The real deal on EC, TDS and ppm. First you need to know there is the true ppm based upon the actual mass (weight) of the salts actually in your liquid concentrate fertilizer. When you read a label of guaranteed analysis and it says something like NPK 10:5:10 that means by mass (weight) of the actual salts present. this is easily converted to true ppm by multiplying each number by 100. ie a guaranteed analysis of 10 is 1000 ppm. When that manufacturers states that at a solution at so much per gallon or liter will produce a mix with say Nitrogen 200 ppm, Phosphorus 100 ppm and Potassium 100 ppm it is NOT the same reading that you see when you use a meter. They are a basing the ppm levels on the actual amount of each salt on a gram per liter of water basis.

A meter provides a reading based on electrical conductivity and then uses a preprogrammed conversion factor to provide a reading of TDS or ppm based on electrical conductivity of the combined slats in the solution. This is not a true ppm measurement. If you actually put say 100 ppm by weight pr volume of six different common fertilizer ions in six separate solution jars you would get six different EC readings. Only one of those readings would possibly read 100 ppm. That is because the meters TDS or PPM output readings are based upon the electrical conductivity of just one specific ion at 100 ppm concentration by weight for a specific volume of solution. Each ion conducts electrical energy which different levels of efficiency. This means each will give a different reading even though in reality all the solution samples really contain 100 ppm by actual mass concentration for the volume of solution. So really all an EC meter give you is a best guess approximation of what is there based upon the electrical conductivity of all the ions combined even though they all conduct electricity at different efficiencies. Simply put it gives you no idea of how much of any specific fertilizer ions are in the solution or even an accurate estimate of how much is there in entirety.

For am example: you can have a liquid fertilizer concentrate that has say 3800 grams per liter of salts in it. That means specifically and truly 3800 ppm.

However you can use an EC meter and get a reading of 3.0 or a CF of 30. The meter will if it is a 0.70 conversion meter may say that the TDS or ppm is 2100. In reality the ppm is 3800, but an EC meter is not an ion specific meter so its simply provides a math based best guess estimate based upon electrical conductivity of all the combined salts.

So when you mix up your nutrients with the hope of giving them say a TDS of 750 ppm and you add the fertilizer based on the ppm of the fertilizer that is bad based upon actual concentrations by nmass you will not get a reading of 750 ppm on your EC meter when you put it in the solution. You will get a lower number. How much lower the number will be is based upon the ratios of the salts actually in the fertilizer.

What all of this really means is an EC meter is just a tool that makes things easier to get repeated same results without having to measure with a measuring cup and it gives a good estimate of the rough approximation of what is till in your reservoir after is use for a while.. But it does not in any way supply you with an accurate number as to just how much fertilizer is really in your solution.

In reality the way to mix your fertilizer is to mix it by the directions for the ppm you desire and then take an EC reading. If you mixed in enough fertilizer to get a 750 ppm reading and you get a reading on your EC meter that says 550 do not add more fertilizer. Just make a note in you log book, or on the fertilizer zero bottle that true 750 ppm is equal to an EC meter reading of 550 ppm. Next time you top of your reservoir orr mix a new reservoir of fertilizer you do not m need to measure by weight or volume but merely add more fertilizer until you get the EC meter reading of 550 ppm. you will then if it sis afresh batch it is truly 750 ppm concentration. If it is a topped of reservoir you will know it is close as you can estimate to the true 750 ppm.

As far as how much nutrients to use at different stages of growth just use something like the General Hydroponics nutrient calculator but use about half to 2 two thirds of what they recommend as they are pretty heavy handed with the amounts they tend to recommend.

http://www.genhydro.com/calculator/index.html

You said nothing about the fact that the conversion is never brought up, I have an EC meter, you have cut and paste...:-|
 

That 5hit

Well-Known Member
get a ppm meter

Clones 200-400 ppm
veg 400-800 ppm
veg-flower 800-1000 ppm
flower 1000-1400 ppm

if its your first time at bat keep it mid-low untill you learn your strain
 

choempi

Well-Known Member
get a ppm meter

Clones 200-400 ppm
veg 400-800 ppm
veg-flower 800-1000 ppm
flower 1000-1400 ppm

if its your first time at bat keep it mid-low untill you learn your strain

at what conversion, thats the point, I have an ec meter you have a choice between death and life with your sharing ppm and no *as to conversion...:o:o:o:o:o:o:o


rep for typing+:joint:
 

fatman7574

New Member
You said nothing about the fact that the conversion is never brought up, I have an EC meter, you have cut and paste...:-|
What are you yacking about child? Cut and paste what? I cut and pasted nothing.

Are you that wacked out or just a bit dense? As far as the conversion. It really does not matter a whole lot anyways conversion as if you are able to read you will see that I conversion adequately explain the difference between true ppm and and estimate ppm based upon EC. Simply put an electronically based (conductivity) ppm is not a true ppm reading it is just a bs est guess estimate derived from an electrical conductivity reading. There is no simple, east or cheap method of obtaining a true ppm on a solution unless you know the amounts by mass of each mineral salts added to the specific volume of water. An EC meter should be consider a tool for monitoring more than a tool for measuring.


Just what is it you think is so important to be discussed about a 0.5 versus a 0.7 conversion meter?

Here is a bit more explanation if it will help turn your crank.

The International Conversion for EC meters is based upon Potassium Chloride (KCl). That conversion factor is 0.50 to 0.57., so an average of 0.50 is used . Some TDS not EC meters use a Sodium Chloride conversion factor which is an averaged 0.50. There is also a conversion factor caleed the 442 conversion fcator. It is based upon a solution made up of 40% Sodium bicarbonate, 40% Sodium Sulfate and 20% and an average of 0.70 is used. This 442 conversion factor is suppose to simulate natural waters such as lake, river and well water.

TDS is actually measured in laboratories by adding a measured volume of water to a preweighed container, evaporating or actually baking off the water and weighing the container and solids then simply subtracting the weight of the container. The resulting solids weight is simply use to calculate how many solids would be in a liter of the same solution. A TDS meter reading likean EC reading is just a best guess estimate derived fron measuring the EC and using a conversion factor. It deoes not provide a true TDS or true ppm reading.

Happy now child? Still no copy and pasting child!
 

choempi

Well-Known Member
What are you yacking about child? Cut and paste what? I cut and pasted nothing.

Are you that wacked out or just a bit dense? As far as the conversion. It really does not matter a whole lot anyways conversion as if you are able to read you will see that I conversion adequately explain the difference between true ppm and and estimate ppm based upon EC. Simply put an electronically based (conductivity) ppm is not a true ppm reading it is just a bs est guess estimate derived from an electrical conductivity reading. There is no simple, east or cheap method of obtaining a true ppm on a solution unless you know the amounts by mass of each mineral salts added to the specific volume of water. An EC meter should be consider a tool for monitoring more than a tool for measuring.


Just what is it you think is so important to be discussed about a 0.5 versus a 0.7 conversion meter?

Here is a bit more explanation if it will help turn your crank.

The International Conversion for EC meters is based upon Potassium Chloride (KCl). That conversion factor is 0.50 to 0.57., so an average of 0.50 is used . Some TDS not EC meters use a Sodium Chloride conversion factor which is an averaged 0.50. There is also a conversion factor caleed the 442 conversion fcator. It is based upon a solution made up of 40% Sodium bicarbonate, 40% Sodium Sulfate and 20% and an average of 0.70 is used. This 442 conversion factor is suppose to simulate natural waters such as lake, river and well water.

TDS is actually measured in laboratories by adding a measured volume of water to a preweighed container, evaporating or actually baking off the water and weighing the container and solids then simply subtracting the weight of the container. The resulting solids weight is simply use to calculate how many solids would be in a liter of the same solution. A TDS meter reading likean EC reading is just a best guess estimate derived fron measuring the EC and using a conversion factor. It deoes not provide a true TDS or true ppm reading.

Happy now child? Still no copy and pasting child!

Dude, thats all good, not hard to find, done it...

Thread is about conversion and how peeps mess each other up by not being specific, ec eliminates the prob, dig?:-?
 

That 5hit

Well-Known Member
shoot for 0.8-1.4 for veg and 1.6-2.4 for flower, every strain varies. just keep going higher until your satisfied
 

fatman7574

New Member
Dude, thats all good, not hard to find, done it...

Thread is about conversion and how peeps mess each other up by not being specific, ec eliminates the prob, dig?:-?
Dude are u you still hitting that pipe.

If it was not hard to find it and you done it (what ever that means) you should share your garnered wisdom dude instead of attempting to prove you possess some knowledge you obviously do not possess.

If you think you know something then share it rather than just complaining. You obviously have not read enough or have little understanding of what you have read or you would not say something as ludicrous as EC eliminates the problem, DIG!!!

No EC does not eliminate the problem, it is just a tool, and not a very good one in many respects. It merely allows repeatable estimates. using an EC meter in an attempt to determine nutrient ppm is a much misused methodolgy and for most people a methodology not well understood and seldom used properly. That is quite evident by the over simplifications, half measures and half truths usually posted in the forums and online in general.

Growers should know the difference between true ppm and an estimated ppm based upon a conversion factor used with an EC reading.

Generalizations such as:
shoot for 0.8-1.4 for veg and 1.6-2.4 for flower, every strain varies. just keep going higher until your satisfied

Can be quite decptive when you have not enough background knowledge to understand just what you are doing when you follow such general recommendations. You can be giving some extremely high true nutrinet ppm's with overly simplified directions such as those. If you truly had a good knowlege of EC, ppm and TDS you would know this. Obviously you and few other posters have a good understanding EC, ppm and TDS or you would not post such recomendations with out first assuring an individual has a full understanding.
 

auto22

Member
if everybody used EC it would save alot of confusion. but since that isnt going to happen anytime soon when stating nutrient levels peeps should state the conversion of thier meter.
 

fatman7574

New Member
NO!!! If everyone used EC blindly with liitle to no understanding of waht that EC meter really tels them it would cause MORE confusion and even more fried plants!!!!

Actually if the EC meter is used properly there is no confusion to be concerned with. Some dumb ass mj forum growers started using EC meters improperly years ago and that bad methodology is just regurgitated in the forums repeatedly to where the bad methodology has become the norm for mj growers. Have you not noticed how many growers here use an EC of say 1.9 and end up burning their plants because they look at the ppm reading given by the meter and think it is accurate.

An EC for one fertilizer might have 2 or three times as much nitrogen as another when measured with the same EC meter. Mix your nutrients according to directions as far as how many millimeters per gallon. That tells you the true nutrient strength in ppm or TDS. Then take a EC reading. It does nt matter what the conversion factor is as the reading is not the true ppm anyway.

The EC reading just gives you a easily obtained measurement that you can use to top off the nutrients to the starting EC measurement as you daily add water you can add nutrients to return to that reading. Some nutrient calculators will tell you the probable EC reading you will obtain by adding so much nutrient to each liter of water, however the ppm conversion will not be the true ppm concentration.

An EC meter should never be used for or the initial time you use a nutrient formulation until after the mixing is finished. You should always mix by ml per liter or ml / teaspoons per gallon. This gives you a true ppm. Then measure the EC. It will not give a true ppm reading but will give you an approximation, and no more. Mixing initially by EC is insane as every nutrient formulation will give a different reading as proportions of the different slats are never the same.

Even the wacked out Lucas in his mixing directions say the EC a certain amount of nutrient in ml should produce. He does not say the EC reading will tell you the true ppm that the nutrients will contain.

The EC meter is a tool that only measures EC. Any information beyond that is simply best guess approximations not true TDS or ppm.

You guys are just perpetuating to much forum bad advice.

Look at this Formulation (a Dyna-Gro product):

Nitrogen 900
Phosphorus 244
Potassium 488
Magnesium 41
Calcium 859
Sulfur 54
Iron 1.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 1.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 5.00
Molybdenum .09
Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 56.8
Potassium Nitrate 3.3
Iron Chelate .14
Part B
Potassium Nitrate B 3.3
MonoPotassium Phosphate 15.4
Magnesium Sulfate 5.5
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .074
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate .294
Ammonium Molybdate .002
Volume of Stock Solutions 1 gallon
Dilution Rate 100
EC 5.9
TDS 4151 ppm
Actual salts mg/L (true ppm) 7720 ppm

The TDS reading is what the EC meter will show as the TDS reading in mg/L or ppm if you follow the mixing directions for a expected TDS or ppm. The true strength in ppm is 7720 ppm.

Figured it out yet guys and gals?
 
Top