Chiller In Lieu Of Air Conditioning?

B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
The title says it all; I have a 20x10 garage that currently has 1600W running in it, that I plan to double to 3000W within a few months (600 watt veg tent, and 2400 watt flowering tent).

Issue is that it's not cooled in any way, and temps in there can get to 100F during the summer.

For a host of reasons (mainly security), AC is not an option, so I was wondering about using a 2HP chiller and a 200 gallon reservoir to cool the entire space.

Would use 4 6" heat exchangers (connected to inline fans and ducting) running to two 16" oscillating fans to keep the space cool, and if I could keep the reservoir at 50F (the chiller is designed to keep 550 gallons at 59F, so that shouldn't be an issue), I'd imagine that would be a constant stream of 55-60F air being produced.

So that part I'm fairly confident in, although anyone who's run a chiller of this size or a heat exchanger and can explain why that wouldn't work would earn my praise.

The "catch" for my application is that the chiller would actually be in the garage itself, so I'm wondering how much heat a 2HP chiller would produce, and if the "AC" that it would produce would overcome the heat it generates.

If necessary, I could put the chiller in its own makeshit "room" made out of tarp, but then the temps in there would get pretty brutal, and I'd wonder about how effective the chiller could be at those temps - anyone's input on that would be very welcome as well.

Thanks in advance for your time.
 
smokingrubber

smokingrubber

Well-Known Member
I really need the answers myself. Although, I will have access to an attic space ... I will need to cool a garage withought having anything noticable outside. I will be running approx 4600w in a 15x20 garage.
 
NewGrowth

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Bob Smith said:
The title says it all; I have a 20x10 garage that currently has 1600W running in it, that I plan to double to 3000W within a few months (600 watt veg tent, and 2400 watt flowering tent).

Issue is that it's not cooled in any way, and temps in there can get to 100F during the summer.

For a host of reasons (mainly security), AC is not an option, so I was wondering about using a 2HP chiller and a 200 gallon reservoir to cool the entire space.

Would use 4 6" heat exchangers (connected to inline fans and ducting) running to two 16" oscillating fans to keep the space cool, and if I could keep the reservoir at 50F (the chiller is designed to keep 550 gallons at 59F, so that shouldn't be an issue), I'd imagine that would be a constant stream of 55-60F air being produced.

So that part I'm fairly confident in, although anyone who's run a chiller of this size or a heat exchanger and can explain why that wouldn't work would earn my praise.

The "catch" for my application is that the chiller would actually be in the garage itself, so I'm wondering how much heat a 2HP chiller would produce, and if the "AC" that it would produce would overcome the heat it generates.

If necessary, I could put the chiller in its own makeshit "room" made out of tarp, but then the temps in there would get pretty brutal, and I'd wonder about how effective the chiller could be at those temps - anyone's input on that would be very welcome as well.

Thanks in advance for your time.
Click to expand...
I've used one of those Ice-Box light chillers on a previous grow and it worked awesome! The cost of the chiller and running all the plumbing is pretty expensive though. The Ice-box calls for 1/2hp per light I believe and it loses effectiveness pretty fast when water temps get higher than 68. I would just go with a split unit a/c if I were you. Water cooling works great but is a pain in the ass.
 
smokingrubber

smokingrubber

Well-Known Member
Water is double effective if you want to put a Co2 generator in a tent though. That's my main thing. I want to Co2 a couple tents but not the whole room. The HydroGen in the tent and an ice-box would fit the bill perfectly inside a 4x9 tent.

Maybe we should contact Hydro Innovations (Ice box maker) and ask them their thoughts?
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
NewGrowth said:
I've used one of those Ice-Box light chillers on a previous grow and it worked awesome! The cost of the chiller and running all the plumbing is pretty expensive though. The Ice-box calls for 1/2hp per light I believe and it loses effectiveness pretty fast when water temps get higher than 68. I would just go with a split unit a/c if I were you. Water cooling works great but is a pain in the ass.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I wouldn't plan on using it on lights - would just air-cool those "standard", with a 425CFM inline per two 600s.

I was thinking more along the lines of 4 of those Ice Boxes, with two blowing into each 16" oscillating fan.

That would be ~1500CFM of 55F air being produced, in a garage that's ~2500 cubic feet.

Keeping the reservoir at ~50F (could probably keep it at 40F with a 2HP chiller), that would be ~55F air being constantly produced, no? Should be able to cool down the ambient garage to 70F fairly easily, shouldn't it?

I'm gonna worry about the tents later, just trying to get the actual garage to "reasonable" temps first and then work off of that.

NewGrowth, how big was your chiller and your reservoir?

EDIT: I'm checking out the hydro innovations website as we speak - lemme see how shady it may or may not be, and I might email them - I'll let you know.
 
NewGrowth

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
smokingrubber said:
Water is double effective if you want to put a Co2 generator in a tent though. That's my main thing. I want to Co2 a couple tents but not the whole room. The HydroGen in the tent and an ice-box would fit the bill perfectly inside a 4x9 tent.

Maybe we should contact Hydro Innovations (Ice box maker) and ask them their thoughts?
Click to expand...
I know a couple people that tried the HydroGen and the thing is still a prototype. One guy said it leaked like crazy, the company provides excellent support but even when he got it to stop leaking it was still too hot. I think you would be better off using CO2 tanks in your tents, they can be metered more exactly with a good monitor and a "drip style" set-up will deliver the CO2 more efficiently.

Bob Smith said:
Yeah, I wouldn't plan on using it on lights - would just air-cool those "standard", with a 425CFM inline per two 600s.

I was thinking more along the lines of 4 of those Ice Boxes, with two blowing into each 16" oscillating fan.

That would be ~1500CFM of 55F air being produced, in a garage that's ~2500 cubic feet.

Keeping the reservoir at ~50F (could probably keep it at 40F with a 2HP chiller), that would be ~55F air being constantly produced, no? Should be able to cool down the ambient garage to 70F fairly easily, shouldn't it?

I'm gonna worry about the tents later, just trying to get the actual garage to "reasonable" temps first and then work off of that.

NewGrowth, how big was your chiller and your reservoir?

EDIT: I'm checking out the hydro innovations website as we speak - lemme see how shady it may or may not be, and I might email them - I'll let you know.
Click to expand...

Hydro innovations is a good company that provides good support but their products are still very new. I don't see any benefit from running a chiller if you are not going to water cool your lights or run CO2. Split A/C will give you a lot less trouble.

I did not use a chiller on my set-up I just ran water drain-to waste because water was free @ the time and the space was too small for 2 1000w HPS without some kind of supplemental cooling.
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
NewGrowth said:
Hydro innovations is a good company that provides good support but their products are still very new. I don't see any benefit from running a chiller if you are not going to water cool your lights or run CO2. Split A/C will give you a lot less trouble.

I did not use a chiller on my set-up I just ran water drain-to waste because water was free @ the time and the space was too small for 2 1000w HPS without some kind of supplemental cooling.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's just the security issue of running a split AC - that generator outside will get some questions being asked that I don't wanna have to answer :?

And I do run CO2 - have three 20# bottles and also a propane generator which I'm probably gonna convert to natural gas sooner rather then later, so I'd use an icebox on that delivery system as well (long story, I decided to pump CO2 into my tent).

And I'm sure you're right about the hassle, but evidently water cooling is way more efficient then AC as well, so that's a nice added bonus - I sent the company an email (pretty similar to the original post in this thread), we'll see what they come back with.
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
Hello, I'm emailing to ask for some clarity regarding the usage and effectiveness of your Ice Boxes and Chillers. Long story short, I have a 20x10 fully sealed room with no access to outside air, and that is not chilled at all (summer temps can get up to 100F+).

As air conditioning is not an option, I was looking into cooling my room and the 3000 watts of HID lighting in there solely off of water chillers and Ice Box heat exchangers - is this a feasible idea? I was planning on a 2HP chiller and a 200 gallon reservoir, which I would hope could be kept at ~45F without too much effort.

Then I'd use 4 Ice Boxes attached to ducting and inline fans to blow the cooled air (hopefully about 55F at this point) around the room - that'd (in theory) be 1500 cubic feet of 55F air being "created" every minute in a 2500 cubic foot space - I'm pretty sure this will work, but would love for you to confirm that for me.

Another big question is how much heat is generated from the chiller - since I have no access to the outside, the chiller would have to be located in the garage, so would the heat produced nullify the cooling effects? If necessary, I could build a room for the chiller, but that would get very hot, very quickly - would temps of 120F materially impact the chiller's effectiveness?

I guess my questions are as follows:

1) Would I be able to overcome the heat produced by the HID lighting and the water chiller itself and be able to keep the room at 70F, in your professional opinion? Yes and no. You can completely cool your garden with the chiller, this is an absolute yes. However, the chiller isn't actually creating heat--all it's doing is taking it out of the garden via the water and exhausting it somewhere else. So if you keep your chiller in the garden, you're defeating the purpose, as all of the heat being taken out is just exhausting right back in. You must keep the chiller separate from the garden, or you must build an insulated plenum on the back of the chiller and add insulated ducting with a 12" max fan on the end to draw the heat out and into another location.

The other (and much preferred) option would be to keep the chiller outside (they are made to go outside and can withstand the elements). The only things that would be entering/exiting the garden would be 3/4" water lines.

You could build another room for it, but you'd need to have some way of ventilating it. They don't need to be kept in a cool location, but they do need a source of fresh air.

2) What size reservoir would you recommend for this application?
You don't need a large reservoir, 75 gallons would be sufficient.

3) How cold could a 2HP chiller keep a 200 gallon reservoir?
See above, but the 2 HP chiller can more than keep up with your 3000 watts of LED's and supplemental cooling requirements. 45 degrees f is doable, but will most likely not be necessary.

4) What is the maximum number of Ice Boxes that can be run off of a 2HP chiller with a 200 gallon reservoir?
There really isn't a limit to the number of Ice Boxes, it's more related to the number of BTU's it can handle (about 28,000 BTU per hour is what it can remove). Really though, instead of doing 4 Ice Boxes with individual fans, I would go with our 2 HP air handler. It's a relatively new product that we're not advertising heavily yet, but it's essentially a giant Ice Box with its own thermostat, humidistat, and fan built in. The fan comes on and off as cooling needs change. It's matched exactly to the cooling power of the chiller for really great efficiency, and cost is very comparable to doing the multiple ice box approach once the fans & thermostats are taken into account.

5) What is the maximum effective operating temperature for a 2HP chiller?
The chillers run most efficiently when the ambient temperature is around 80-90 degrees, but they can be used in a wide range of temps, from below 0 (with a compressor heater installed at the factory prior to shipping) to over 100 degrees.

Thanks so much for your time, and apologies for the long-winded email - I really hope this idea is feasible and that I can do some business with you guys.

Regards,
Bob
 
smokingrubber

smokingrubber

Well-Known Member
I'm debating the Co2, if it's worth 4k+ for the solution right now? It's probably WELL worth the 30% yield increase ... but I need to be positive it will all work as planned.
 
NewGrowth

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting that Bob good to see Hydro Innovations is still providing good service too. How would running a chiller be more stealth for you? Split units can be bought all in one they are sometimes labeled "portable" all you have to do is run a hose to vent the hot air outside.

I suppose the trade off is initial start-up cost VS efficient. Would the reduced power consumption be worth it?
 
sagensour

sagensour

Active Member
Buy two portable a/c units and vent the condensed air into the attic. You can even goes as attaching flex ducting to your exhaust (from the portable a/c) and running into the attic and attaching it to a gable vent to vent outside. chillers are cool. Y not get a chgiller with a big water cooled air handler. Gonna need a big ass evep coil though.
 
GypsyBush

GypsyBush

Well-Known Member
SOG definitely knows how to buy stuff and put it together nicely!!!

I'm a BIG FAN...

I almost wish I lived in a hot place just to use a chiller and exchanger like him...

But I get to use heaters 10 months of the year...:lol: ok not funny....:wall:
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
watercooled@

watercooled@

Active Member
Bob, I'll answer one of your questions...

A 2HP chiller would heat up your garage immensely, in return it would be difficult to keep the tents cool unless they were insulated like a fridge. If you were to put it outside and bought an aquarium chiller, then yes... it would work.

An aquarium chiller outside would also answer questions for you, because it's not an A/C. It's for your aquarium silly :-) I like the 2-3 HP commercial JBJ ones.

Cheers!
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
Hi Bob,

Yep, that would work. Not the most energy efficient way to do it but it'll get your temps where you want them I think, and still better than the alternative.

The 1/2 HP chiller will do fine inside. You could also mount it in a window (just like a window unit a/c) if you want.

Brandy
-----Original Message-----​

From: Bob
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:23 AM
To: Brandy Keen
Subject: RE: Chiller and Ice Box Questions​


Brandy, thanks so much again - one way or another, we're gonna make this work :)

In regards to putting the chiller outside, that's unfortunately just not an option - the reason I can do AC is because it's a mini-split, with the outside unit located about fifty feet from my garage.

Anyways, last scenario (I think):

If I were to simply air-cool my lights in the standard fashion (taking in 70F garage air, going throught the lights, and then exhausting back into the general garage area, without ever being exposed to the tent) - based on my experiences, with the garage at 70F, that would bring the tent up to about 85-90F.

So, the air-cooling of the lights would remove much of the heat they produced, and that would be "dumped" into the main garage area, where the AC would handle it.

Making some numbers up, that would remove ~6600BTU of heat from the tent, leaving 3000BTUs from the lights and the HydroGen.

Would a 1/2 HP chiller be enough (coupled with that insulated 25 gallon reservoir and one or two ice boxes) to handle this heatload? Yours at 8000 BTU would handle that quite easily, no? Also, I wouldn't need to remove ALL the heat, just enough to get it down the low 80s.

And do you not make an indoor version of the 1/2HP chiller?

Regards,
Bob

--- On Wed, 2/3/10, Brandy Keen <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Brandy Keen <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Chiller and Ice Box Questions
To: Bob
Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 10:27 AM


Hi Bob,

No problem. Please see below.

Brandy
-----Original Message-----​

From: Bob
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:40 PM
To: Brandy Keen
Subject: RE: Chiller and Ice Box Questions​


All right Brandy, I went back to the drawing board and have a new gameplan, if you'd care to critique.

Firstly, I have a question for you - why does the reservoir need to be located outside of the grow area to cool the HydroGen and Ice Boxes? I was thinking of using an insulated cooler as my reservoir, similar to this:

http://www.cooler-store.com/igloo_maxcold_cooler_120qt_13021_11_prd1.htm

Would I not be able to keep that reservoir in the grow room? The chiller would be outside the grow tent (getting an 18K BTU mini-split AC to keep the garage steady at 70F); only the reservoir would be in the grow room (tent)). If you can put the A/C outside is there any particular reason you'd prefer not to put the chiller outside? It looks just like a small air conditioner (in fact, it uses housings from a frigidaire window mount a/c). Your set up should work fine but you'll save a LOT of cooling energy just putting the chiller outside.

Anyways, so that'd be about a 25 gallon reservoir, and I'd have a 1/2 horsepower chiller outside the tent to keep that water as cold as needed, somewhere in the 55F range.

FYI, there's going to be 4 600HPS lights in the tent in addition to a 25 pint dehumidifier, to give an idea of the cooling needs - each pair of lights will be cooled by a 425CFM inline fan.
You'll need a 1 HP chiller. Your lights are generating about 9600 BTU of heat. Most 1/2 HP chillers only have about 4000 BTU of cooling output (ours has 8000 BTU but it's still out paced). Most 1 HP chillers have about 8-10K BTU of cooling output. Our 1 HP chiller has about 14K BTU of cooling output, so you'll have plenty of power to cool the lights and air condition the whole garden. It's not a big jump in price to go with the 1 HP over the 1/2 HP.

So, the million dollar questions:

1) Can I keep that reservoir in the tent without too many problems? I'd much prefer to just have two tubes leaving the tent as opposed to 6-8 tubes leaving the tent.You can keep the reservoir in the garden when you're using a chiller. We recommend that the reservoir be kept outside of the garden when all you're running is a HydroGEN or when you're relying on ambient cooling to cool the res (ie, no chiller). Also, you shouldn't be having one tube per Ice Box coming out of your reservoir. You should just have one pump and supply manifold coming out of the res, with the tubing split off at the Ice Boxes, and then back to a return manifold. So one tube in, one tube out, split up and then coming back together before re-entering the res.
2) Would that reservoir and chiller combination be sufficient to keep a HydroGen cool in an 8x8x8 tent, as well as to use one or two ice boxes for air conditioning? With the 1 HP, definitely. The 1/2 HP won't do it.
3) Using that rez/chiller setup, would I be better off having two ice boxes at the end of each pair of lights (with a 6" 425CFM fan per two lights), and using the Ice Boxes in that fashion (hopefully to cool the tent), or would I be better off air-cooling the lights (outside air------>through lights-------->back to outside), and only having one Ice Box attached to a fan to be "purely" for cooling the tent? Can you put the Ice Boxes between the lights? This is the most efficient way to do it. If you can't do that, the two IB's at the end of the 2 light pair is the best idea.

Sorry for the amount of questions and for being such a pain, but I'd love to support your company and just wanna make sure that it's feasible for me to do so.

Thanks,
Bob



--- On Mon, 2/1/10, Brandy Keen <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Brandy Keen <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Chiller and Ice Box Questions
To: Bob
Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 3:40 PM

Not at all! :-) Let me know if there's more I can help with.

Brandy
-----Original Message-----​

From: Bob
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 2:35 PM
To: Brandy Keen
Subject: RE: Chiller and Ice Box Questions​


Brandy, I apologize again - I didn't see your answers in my initial email.

Sorry I'm an idiot,
Bob

--- On Mon, 2/1/10, Brandy Keen <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Brandy Keen <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Chiller and Ice Box Questions
To:Bob
Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 3:25 PM


Hi Bob,

Your theories are completely correct, and you'll absolutely be able to do what you want to do using our system, but your approach needs a tiny bit of tweaking. I have a guy doing something very similar on a smaller scale in his LED garden and he's getting really great results. Please see below for more details, and let us know as you have more questions.

Best regards,

Brandy Keen
Customer Service
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----​

From: Bob
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 1:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Chiller and Ice Box Questions​


Hello, I'm emailing to ask for some clarity regarding the usage and effectiveness of your Ice Boxes and Chillers. Long story short, I have a 20x10 fully sealed room with no access to outside air, and that is not chilled at all (summer temps can get up to 100F+).

As air conditioning is not an option, I was looking into cooling my room and the 3000 watts of HID lighting in there solely off of water chillers and Ice Box heat exchangers - is this a feasible idea? I was planning on a 2HP chiller and a 200 gallon reservoir, which I would hope could be kept at ~45F without too much effort.

Then I'd use 4 Ice Boxes attached to ducting and inline fans to blow the cooled air (hopefully about 55F at this point) around the room - that'd (in theory) be 1500 cubic feet of 55F air being "created" every minute in a 2500 cubic foot space - I'm pretty sure this will work, but would love for you to confirm that for me.

Another big question is how much heat is generated from the chiller - since I have no access to the outside, the chiller would have to be located in the garage, so would the heat produced nullify the cooling effects? If necessary, I could build a room for the chiller, but that would get very hot, very quickly - would temps of 120F materially impact the chiller's effectiveness?

I guess my questions are as follows:

1) Would I be able to overcome the heat produced by the HID lighting and the water chiller itself and be able to keep the room at 70F, in your professional opinion? Yes and no. You can completely cool your garden with the chiller, this is an absolute yes. However, the chiller isn't actually creating heat--all it's doing is taking it out of the garden via the water and exhausting it somewhere else. So if you keep your chiller in the garden, you're defeating the purpose, as all of the heat being taken out is just exhausting right back in. You must keep the chiller separate from the garden, or you must build an insulated plenum on the back of the chiller and add insulated ducting with a 12" max fan on the end to draw the heat out and into another location.

The other (and much preferred) option would be to keep the chiller outside (they are made to go outside and can withstand the elements). The only things that would be entering/exiting the garden would be 3/4" water lines.

You could build another room for it, but you'd need to have some way of ventilating it. They don't need to be kept in a cool location, but they do need a source of fresh air.

2) What size reservoir would you recommend for this application?
You don't need a large reservoir, 75 gallons would be sufficient.

3) How cold could a 2HP chiller keep a 200 gallon reservoir?
See above, but the 2 HP chiller can more than keep up with your 3000 watts of LED's and supplemental cooling requirements. 45 degrees f is doable, but will most likely not be necessary.

4) What is the maximum number of Ice Boxes that can be run off of a 2HP chiller with a 200 gallon reservoir?
There really isn't a limit to the number of Ice Boxes, it's more related to the number of BTU's it can handle (about 28,000 BTU per hour is what it can remove). Really though, instead of doing 4 Ice Boxes with individual fans, I would go with our 2 HP air handler. It's a relatively new product that we're not advertising heavily yet, but it's essentially a giant Ice Box with its own thermostat, humidistat, and fan built in. The fan comes on and off as cooling needs change. It's matched exactly to the cooling power of the chiller for really great efficiency, and cost is very comparable to doing the multiple ice box approach once the fans & thermostats are taken into account.

5) What is the maximum effective operating temperature for a 2HP chiller?
The chillers run most efficiently when the ambient temperature is around 80-90 degrees, but they can be used in a wide range of temps, from below 0 (with a compressor heater installed at the factory prior to shipping) to over 100 degrees.

Thanks so much for your time, and apologies for the long-winded email - I really hope this idea is feasible and that I can do some business with you guys.

Regards,
Bob
​
 
smokingrubber

smokingrubber

Well-Known Member
That's great info Bob. I can loop my light heat up and out the attic so that's a HUGE load off my setup. It sounds like I could keep a 1/2 HP chiller inside the garage without having it create too much heat and it should be enough to cool the garage and two HydroGENs. Do they make an indoor chiller with split ducting or do I have to make it myself?
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
smokingrubber said:
That's great info Bob. I can loop my light heat up and out the attic so that's a HUGE load off my setup. It sounds like I could keep a 1/2 HP chiller inside the garage without having it create too much heat and it should be enough to cool the garage and two HydroGENs. Do they make an indoor chiller with split ducting or do I have to make it myself?
Click to expand...
That I have no idea about (not really sure what split ducting means in regards to a chiller, in all honesty).

Couldn't you just have one reservoir, one chiller, and run both the HydroGens off of that? Have the rez sit in-between the two tents?

The question that I'm wondering, in all honesty, is if their 1/2 HP chiller is worth 3X as much as a competitors, like say EcoPlus - it's $2400 vs. $800, and for what I would need, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Also, the EcoPlus looks like it's designed to be operated indoors, which is a positive in my book.

Of course I'd like to give them business and support them, but I think that if I buy a HydrGen and a couple of Ice Boxes I've done my part, no?

http://www.aquacave.com/ecoplus-12-hp-water-br-chiller-by-sunlight-supply-2599.html
 
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