M.o.b.
- Thread starter Maine Brookies
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Buddy232
Active Member
I understand it is a hot topic Tet as it is originated in your state correct? However I beleive Cerebus was impling that MOB clones of various origins would be inclined to be measureably different. As I mentioned, with asexual reproduction you lose the advantage of genetic diversity that sexually reproducing organism's have. It can work to your advantage or disadvantage. In terms of animals, arthropods to be specific... Most importantly, you do not need males. Second, typically asexually reproducers can do so much faster. However the downfall is if something goes bad (series' of mutations such as I've mentioned), it can lead to the demise of the species if it ever becomes dependent on that now defunct genetic population. As I already mentioned though, mutations can be good, just think of some viruses, the staph virus sticks out. The normal virus is fully treatable, the mutated, "super" virus, call be life threatning. (That's great if your the virus.)
That brings me to another point. I mentioned in my last post about how two people COULD have MOB that are slightly different, IF, somehow a plant decided to mutate... then the grower selected that plant as a mother (or their mother mutated) and IF that plant was futher passed around. The staph virus mutation perfectly proves that point. However that sort of passed itself around I guess.
On the other hand, if you Tet think that Cerebus referr's to comparing everyones MOB to try to figure out who's is legit and who's isnt. I say you find the older known cuts and make the seeds as we've discussed and everyone gets some and trashed all the plants. It's the only way.
I feel like a dream breaker on these forums but when you've worked in a lab since you were 14 you tend to dismiss a lot of things.
maineyankee
Active Member
You are not a dream breaker Buddy, and I for one, appreciate all that I have learned in my recent (getting back in the swing of things), dealings with MJ, and MMJ. I don't know currently, nor will I ever know, everything that there is to learn about weed, hemp, medicines, Pharma's etc.
What I DO KNOW is this ... I can tell a Mainer from a hundreds yards away, and I can sense that same feeling by the way they post. It is a "Gift" that I have. No one was stepping on anyone's toes, and therefore, no harm was meant. I got it the first time out. So did those that are in this "Maine Patients/Caregivers/Medical/Recreational/Friends etc. Sub-Forum.
I am glad that you worked in that environment since the tender age of 14. Please do not come in here with a chip on your shoulder, or a "Better Than Thou" Attitude. I can only speak for MYSELF ... But, for the most part, WE get along, and help out along the way ... All the while "HAVING FUN".
Please, please, do not take this the wrong way ... It is just not "My Style" to offend anyone, including You.
I hope that you can still bring insight, help, and knowledge to people like myself ... Just don't shove it down MY throat.
Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas
The MaineYankee
What I DO KNOW is this ... I can tell a Mainer from a hundreds yards away, and I can sense that same feeling by the way they post. It is a "Gift" that I have. No one was stepping on anyone's toes, and therefore, no harm was meant. I got it the first time out. So did those that are in this "Maine Patients/Caregivers/Medical/Recreational/Friends etc. Sub-Forum.
I am glad that you worked in that environment since the tender age of 14. Please do not come in here with a chip on your shoulder, or a "Better Than Thou" Attitude. I can only speak for MYSELF ... But, for the most part, WE get along, and help out along the way ... All the while "HAVING FUN".
Please, please, do not take this the wrong way ... It is just not "My Style" to offend anyone, including You.
I hope that you can still bring insight, help, and knowledge to people like myself ... Just don't shove it down MY throat.
Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas
The MaineYankee
driftwoodg
Well-Known Member
I like your Idea..
Buddy232
Active Member
Afternoon Maine Yank,
I would never take your opinion the wrong way! Unless of course you were being rash and baseless, then that would just be mean. LOL
It's definently not my intent to be 'in your face' or force my thoughts upon others. However in the short time I've been involved with MMJ I've seen an abundance of misconceptions, misinformation and unchecked data that get's republished - I feel terrible for the community as a whole. I've only been growing for about 6 months now, researching for about 9, however the amount of knowledge I've been able to aquire in this field is that of just a few weeks in others I've studied. Yes I've read tons of stuff, but the fact of the matter is MJ is a popular subject so it's more prone to these misconceptions and passage of information as I mention. However when you study the embryotic development of fish, or systematic behavior of scorpions - their is a lot less data available. That which is availble is heavily scrutinized by the scientific community. I will not lie, I wasn't one of those people doing the writing or the scrutinizing, I was just the one working and reading.
This stuff involving genetics is easy stuff, and I'd like to do my best to explain it without saying "I know what I'm talking about". Because the guy who just say's that is usually the idiot in the group. I think everyone in the MMJ community deserves to know how basic genetics works and why what breeders are doing today is half ass and bs. If one spends about a half a day researching the hybrid corn seed industry/history you can sort of see a trend of what I mention. However corn self pollinates naturally.
So once again, I don't mean to come off as a jerk. I just think everyone deserves more building blocks to further their knowledge. Just because I worked in lab settings for 10 years as well doesn't mean I'm gainfully employed!
Research pay's pennies, and if any of you fellow New Englander's could offer me a good oppurtunity up there I'd scoop it in a heart beat!
Bud
I would never take your opinion the wrong way! Unless of course you were being rash and baseless, then that would just be mean. LOL
It's definently not my intent to be 'in your face' or force my thoughts upon others. However in the short time I've been involved with MMJ I've seen an abundance of misconceptions, misinformation and unchecked data that get's republished - I feel terrible for the community as a whole. I've only been growing for about 6 months now, researching for about 9, however the amount of knowledge I've been able to aquire in this field is that of just a few weeks in others I've studied. Yes I've read tons of stuff, but the fact of the matter is MJ is a popular subject so it's more prone to these misconceptions and passage of information as I mention. However when you study the embryotic development of fish, or systematic behavior of scorpions - their is a lot less data available. That which is availble is heavily scrutinized by the scientific community. I will not lie, I wasn't one of those people doing the writing or the scrutinizing, I was just the one working and reading.
This stuff involving genetics is easy stuff, and I'd like to do my best to explain it without saying "I know what I'm talking about". Because the guy who just say's that is usually the idiot in the group. I think everyone in the MMJ community deserves to know how basic genetics works and why what breeders are doing today is half ass and bs. If one spends about a half a day researching the hybrid corn seed industry/history you can sort of see a trend of what I mention. However corn self pollinates naturally.
So once again, I don't mean to come off as a jerk. I just think everyone deserves more building blocks to further their knowledge. Just because I worked in lab settings for 10 years as well doesn't mean I'm gainfully employed!
Research pay's pennies, and if any of you fellow New Englander's could offer me a good oppurtunity up there I'd scoop it in a heart beat!Bud
cerberus
Well-Known Member
heres where your not looking for more info. this strain came froma breeder, I would wager money they diidn't breed in a closet by themselves.. this being my thought (being no one here isn't trading info or/and genetics)with this, then there may be lines from previous rounds of genetic creations, there maybe cuts from two (or more if it was a co-op of sorts) if it was a team project.
ALSO, i have personally tried many different mobs, dozens, some have been very similiar (the difference probably stems from growing) but some where not, more like a pheno of the main line..
I understand how clones work, and i understand where your coming from, but you assume that there was one perfect plant pulled from a crop and made the super mom, i think some one spent the time to create this super mom..
also, gotten from each other, means i dn't need a cut from person b if they got it from person a and I was the one that supplied person A..
Buddy232
Active Member
Morning Cerberus,
You are correct, I am definently not informed on the history of the strain... where it originated, how long it's been around, etc. I admit I am sterotyping it along with all the other "clone only" strains, or so-called one's. It would absolutely benefit my understanding of everyones perceptions if I did have that knowledge. (Is there anything reccomendable to read up on?)
Like I said a post or so ago - I don't want you fellas to think I'm trying to belittle or be offensive to anyone. And the "gripe" I have isn't with any strain or with cloned strains. I guess you can say it's is the (industry?) and how it has marketed strains/seeds. I feel it's not orderly for one, there is too many variables in strain production that could be eliminated to make a pefect "product" that can be reliable for everyone who wants it. I feel the plant is half of the appeal to the breeders and the money is the other half. Like I've seen a commercial breeders article (whom I like their strains) where they said they only produced 500 seeds of a strain. That's after backcrossing 3 or 4 generations I think... running probably a few hundred plants. What a waste. The person makes good product, but you still have to germinate all the seeds you have and pick the best.
As we both said, I really don't know much about MOB. I just sort of assume that it was originally the "perfect cut" - however it arose though, if it came from a phantom seed or was bred intentionally... I'm not particularly mindful. If it were a result of a breeding effort, and there were other parents left over - to me personally, they wouldn't be MOB. They'd be parents, or you could substitute another name for them - but not "MOB". To me, the name is application only to the mother plant and all of the clones that exsist. Others may feel different. But for me, that's the most taxonomical and effective way to classify everything. Part of "the way" for that to work though is for breeders/seedbanks to only release feminized seeds. As I said, the best model is the hybrid corn seed industry... a company would be sunk overnight if they couldn't produce seed/plants identical to the one next to it.
I don't doubt you may have tried some MOB that was different Cer. With a plant like that which has been heavily cloned, I'd examine** each one thoroughally by eye and look for differences. Swap buds with people and look for differences in leaf and bud structure. Like I mentioned, just because somethings genetically identical doesn't mean it can't mutate. Personally I'm not that deeply interested in all that to know more - but sometimes things are visable obvious. If you ever see something you think is neat, grab a cut, label it MOB-X variable and mess with it. That's how you learn and who knows, your plant may have gifted you with a mutation that yields better, denser, tastier. Or one that makes it weaker.
If your right about MOB being from a breeding effort and not one mother plant. You would have actual phenotypes, along with mostly plants that are pretty close to the mother. In my perfect world, you can have seed stock of that exact mother, and of each exact pheno, just pick which one you'd like.
I think in a run around way we all agree - it's just a matter of how to discuss the matter considering we're not scientists and are chatting online. I bet if we were hanging having a brew we'd all have some good chats.
Bud
You are correct, I am definently not informed on the history of the strain... where it originated, how long it's been around, etc. I admit I am sterotyping it along with all the other "clone only" strains, or so-called one's. It would absolutely benefit my understanding of everyones perceptions if I did have that knowledge. (Is there anything reccomendable to read up on?)
Like I said a post or so ago - I don't want you fellas to think I'm trying to belittle or be offensive to anyone. And the "gripe" I have isn't with any strain or with cloned strains. I guess you can say it's is the (industry?) and how it has marketed strains/seeds. I feel it's not orderly for one, there is too many variables in strain production that could be eliminated to make a pefect "product" that can be reliable for everyone who wants it. I feel the plant is half of the appeal to the breeders and the money is the other half. Like I've seen a commercial breeders article (whom I like their strains) where they said they only produced 500 seeds of a strain. That's after backcrossing 3 or 4 generations I think... running probably a few hundred plants. What a waste. The person makes good product, but you still have to germinate all the seeds you have and pick the best.
As we both said, I really don't know much about MOB. I just sort of assume that it was originally the "perfect cut" - however it arose though, if it came from a phantom seed or was bred intentionally... I'm not particularly mindful. If it were a result of a breeding effort, and there were other parents left over - to me personally, they wouldn't be MOB. They'd be parents, or you could substitute another name for them - but not "MOB". To me, the name is application only to the mother plant and all of the clones that exsist. Others may feel different. But for me, that's the most taxonomical and effective way to classify everything. Part of "the way" for that to work though is for breeders/seedbanks to only release feminized seeds. As I said, the best model is the hybrid corn seed industry... a company would be sunk overnight if they couldn't produce seed/plants identical to the one next to it.
I don't doubt you may have tried some MOB that was different Cer. With a plant like that which has been heavily cloned, I'd examine** each one thoroughally by eye and look for differences. Swap buds with people and look for differences in leaf and bud structure. Like I mentioned, just because somethings genetically identical doesn't mean it can't mutate. Personally I'm not that deeply interested in all that to know more - but sometimes things are visable obvious. If you ever see something you think is neat, grab a cut, label it MOB-X variable and mess with it. That's how you learn and who knows, your plant may have gifted you with a mutation that yields better, denser, tastier. Or one that makes it weaker.
If your right about MOB being from a breeding effort and not one mother plant. You would have actual phenotypes, along with mostly plants that are pretty close to the mother. In my perfect world, you can have seed stock of that exact mother, and of each exact pheno, just pick which one you'd like.
I think in a run around way we all agree - it's just a matter of how to discuss the matter considering we're not scientists and are chatting online. I bet if we were hanging having a brew we'd all have some good chats.
Bud
nl3004.kind
Active Member
you make good points, however cannabis also pollinates itself naturally as well: either by expressing hermaphroditic traits due to environmental stresses or other stresses like insect attack or the like or the more natural way in which a male can pollinate a room just by being in it (provided it is ready to release pollen ect)... the basic genetics are easy to understand, and many of the books out there do more than a fair job explaining how the process works... most of the old myths are slowly being written out of existence, but there are some far out out concepts that are counter-intuitive but also actually do work... research will take you far, but experience will also help, once you've been growing a while (longer, that is), you will see that most of the esoteric stuff is immaterial to what YOU are actually trying to do... you are not wrong about some breeders being bs, but with this particular subject (due to its illegality and the natural inclination of some folks to spread false rumors) there are many people who are not able to scientifically explain it, but can produce some of the finest cannabis known to man... the only way that we are going to learn is to try to learn from everyone as best we can... good luck, and glad to have you here!!!
also, it is a poor choice to choose to follow the model of agribusiness regarding hybridized corn due to issues with sustainability, vigor and genetic "bottlenecking" wherein industrial breeding programs breed for uniformity end up closing off potentially valuable avenues of research... the issue is not how to produce genetically identical plants (that is why the gods gave us cloning) but rather how to verify that a seed (or clone) is what the seller claims it to be... there are far too few people working with reliable sources, and those that are tend to be stingy with the details... the last thing i (or most patients) want to see is cookie cutter cannabis, we all are different, and thus have different needs which is why the genetic diversity of the cannabis family is so awesome for patients...Afternoon Maine Yank,
I would never take your opinion the wrong way! Unless of course you were being rash and baseless, then that would just be mean. LOL
It's definently not my intent to be 'in your face' or force my thoughts upon others. However in the short time I've been involved with MMJ I've seen an abundance of misconceptions, misinformation and unchecked data that get's republished - I feel terrible for the community as a whole. I've only been growing for about 6 months now, researching for about 9, however the amount of knowledge I've been able to aquire in this field is that of just a few weeks in others I've studied. Yes I've read tons of stuff, but the fact of the matter is MJ is a popular subject so it's more prone to these misconceptions and passage of information as I mention. However when you study the embryotic development of fish, or systematic behavior of scorpions - their is a lot less data available. That which is availble is heavily scrutinized by the scientific community. I will not lie, I wasn't one of those people doing the writing or the scrutinizing, I was just the one working and reading.
This stuff involving genetics is easy stuff, and I'd like to do my best to explain it without saying "I know what I'm talking about". Because the guy who just say's that is usually the idiot in the group. I think everyone in the MMJ community deserves to know how basic genetics works and why what breeders are doing today is half ass and bs. If one spends about a half a day researching the hybrid corn seed industry/history you can sort of see a trend of what I mention. However corn self pollinates naturally.
So once again, I don't mean to come off as a jerk. I just think everyone deserves more building blocks to further their knowledge. Just because I worked in lab settings for 10 years as well doesn't mean I'm gainfully employed!
Bud
Buddy232
Active Member
Morning NL,
I agree with everything you've said!! It seems the closer everyone comes to an understanding of the concepts that I'm trying to portray, the less I seem like a jerk and the more I seem like someone with a lot of ideas that I can't act upon (at this time). I'd be the first to admit, a lot of the propositions I've made are sound (to me) and "on paper"... however physiologically, that may not be the case. When you start to artifically manipulate genetics in ways nature didn't fully intend, you hit a lot of road blocks - mainly fertility and viability issues. As we've both pointed out my growing experience is quite limited as well. Most of my knowledge falls back upon my previous work which is quite similar and different in so many ways.
I'll also admit I've done VERY little reading regarding breeding and genetics from those people that the medical community would regard as todays voice on the subjects. Me personally, I'm a google nut, and usually will just use the scholar function to search for topics I'm interested in - print some of the results and check off papers I may be interested in further studying. For a long time I was privledged to have access to scientific and medical journal databases and what few research papers I wanted to read that I couldn't obtain, I usually could contact the author directly. I would be very interested in what normal people find resourceful and informational.
Your correct about it being unfair to compare my theories to the hybridized corn industry. However for the purpose of "argument" (I'm not trying to argue) it's one of the few ways to do it.
I think I already mentioned somewhere in the thread that it was a poor comparison because corn is an incomplete unisexual flower. (Incomplete as in the male and female parts aren't in the same flower but they are on the same plant.) To the best of my knowledge though their industry does a fair job of producing stable seed stock, which is what I think the cannabis seed industry should be able to do. However a good breeder could take preventative measures to prevent bottlenecking and closing off genetic avenue's such as you mention (I would). That's a apart of the task - produce a 100% reliable gentic that can help people and then move on to another one.
Addressing your thought about few people working with reliable sources and being stingy. I think that part of that has to do with the "blood, sweat and tear" work involved with trying to find things nobody else has. As I've mentioned, I wasn't a white coat and plastic goggle type guy carrying around beakers. Part of my job was scouring the world for specimen unknown to science and then establishing captive populations for company(s) to do dna sequencing and venom extraction. In the mean time I did my own simple observational studies on them for "fun", but the former was how I actually made money. Had I released even some of my specimen, well then someone is eating away at my very lively hood. You know?
Talk to you soon.
Bud
I agree with everything you've said!! It seems the closer everyone comes to an understanding of the concepts that I'm trying to portray, the less I seem like a jerk and the more I seem like someone with a lot of ideas that I can't act upon (at this time). I'd be the first to admit, a lot of the propositions I've made are sound (to me) and "on paper"... however physiologically, that may not be the case. When you start to artifically manipulate genetics in ways nature didn't fully intend, you hit a lot of road blocks - mainly fertility and viability issues. As we've both pointed out my growing experience is quite limited as well. Most of my knowledge falls back upon my previous work which is quite similar and different in so many ways.
I'll also admit I've done VERY little reading regarding breeding and genetics from those people that the medical community would regard as todays voice on the subjects. Me personally, I'm a google nut, and usually will just use the scholar function to search for topics I'm interested in - print some of the results and check off papers I may be interested in further studying. For a long time I was privledged to have access to scientific and medical journal databases and what few research papers I wanted to read that I couldn't obtain, I usually could contact the author directly. I would be very interested in what normal people find resourceful and informational.
Your correct about it being unfair to compare my theories to the hybridized corn industry. However for the purpose of "argument" (I'm not trying to argue
) it's one of the few ways to do it.I think I already mentioned somewhere in the thread that it was a poor comparison because corn is an incomplete unisexual flower. (Incomplete as in the male and female parts aren't in the same flower but they are on the same plant.) To the best of my knowledge though their industry does a fair job of producing stable seed stock, which is what I think the cannabis seed industry should be able to do. However a good breeder could take preventative measures to prevent bottlenecking and closing off genetic avenue's such as you mention (I would). That's a apart of the task - produce a 100% reliable gentic that can help people and then move on to another one.
Addressing your thought about few people working with reliable sources and being stingy. I think that part of that has to do with the "blood, sweat and tear" work involved with trying to find things nobody else has. As I've mentioned, I wasn't a white coat and plastic goggle type guy carrying around beakers. Part of my job was scouring the world for specimen unknown to science and then establishing captive populations for company(s) to do dna sequencing and venom extraction. In the mean time I did my own simple observational studies on them for "fun", but the former was how I actually made money. Had I released even some of my specimen, well then someone is eating away at my very lively hood. You know?
Talk to you soon.
Bud