The "OFFICIAL" cast your VOTE on PROP 19 thread
- Thread starter fdd2blk
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AbsoluteChron
Member
Don't get me wrong, I think cannabis should be outright legal and basically unrestricted. I just see a major problem with the argument that now is the time to legalize it so that it can be taxed to help with the failing state budget. I really don't put cannabis in the same category as alcohol and tobacco so I think that a sin tax is completely unreasonable. You don't fix a failed bureaucracy by injecting capital into it, you need to raise its efficiency.
I prefer the medical movement. I'm a card holder and I want to smoke the cleanest and highest grade bud that I can when I can. I think that Prop 19 hands the industry over to commercial operations and will lower the overall quality. I agree that we have to start somewhere, and that was Prop 215! I am completely confident that cannabis will be legal within 5 years. I just don't care for the way Prop 19 is written and I feel like it would be a step backwards.
NO ON PROP 19!!
I prefer the medical movement. I'm a card holder and I want to smoke the cleanest and highest grade bud that I can when I can. I think that Prop 19 hands the industry over to commercial operations and will lower the overall quality. I agree that we have to start somewhere, and that was Prop 215! I am completely confident that cannabis will be legal within 5 years. I just don't care for the way Prop 19 is written and I feel like it would be a step backwards.
NO ON PROP 19!!
Scuba
Well-Known Member
dude your awesome for realizing that we HAVE ALREADY TAKEN THE FIRST STEP WITH PROP 215. Most "smokers" don't realize that. They just see that "some" people can get legal Ganja, so they want it too without paying for the medical card and legal backing. Which i find quite ignorant and quite selfish.
But it's awesome SOME people realize whats what.
undertheice
Well-Known Member
do you object to taxes in general or is it only your weed you want to be exempt from the government's financial clutches and its regulatory demands? the funds to try to save california from its fiscal irresponsibility are going to come from a number of sources and denying us the funds that would become available from taxing weed is a bit of selfishness we can ill afford. lest we forget, it is a mind altering substance and a premium will be paid for its use. at present that premium is the extra expense of operating within the black market and its proceeds are of no use to the community.
there will never be unrestricted access as long as we allow government to protect us from ourselves. the bureaucracy's inefficiency and intrusive nature have nothing to do with the matter of legalization. they are the product of special interest meddling and decades of bleeding heart waste. we have attempted to force perfection on the population and the price we are paying is insolvency and third world status. we have overtaxed our productive citizens and tried to provide our poor with the best of everything. we have created a cult of entitlement that has strangled productivity and sent it searching for greener pastures. we have allowed the state to attempt to control our every move and it has not only been found lacking in ability, but more prone to the very corruption we have tried to eliminate from the private sector. but all of this has nothing to do with the opportunity we are now handed to place our herb among all the other legitimate goods that are traded within our society. of course it will be overtaxed, everything is. we do not start to reduce this taxation by simply eliminating it from the pool.
of course you prefer the medical movement. you've got your card and screw everyone else, right? the smokescreens of reduced quality and corporate takeovers are just that, a flimsy camouflage for the elitism of the medical community and the naive demands for absolute autonomy. it should be realized that prop 215 was merely a nod to another special interest group, a practice that politicians use to endear themselves to blocs of voters and nothing more. mmj is just an offshoot of a movement that existed long before the concept was even imagined. prop 215 was the backward step. it created another splintering, another way for our enemies to divide the proponents of legalization and to weaken the whole.
just how many lives do you think will be ruined in this five year period until you believe weed will be legalized? every day men and women are threatened with arrest and detention. their property is confiscated, their livelihoods are destroyed and they are separated from their friends and families. meanwhile, thousands more each day will pay their fees to the state and to various physicians and they will obtain permission from the state, often fraudulently, to consume and produce a substance less hazardous than a bottle of beer. most of what prop 215 has done is to create another class of criminal and provide another avenue of control for our would-be masters. of course you prefer the medical movement. it allows the illusion of freedom, creates another group of special individuals and permits the status quo to be maintained without being too obvious about it.
undertheice
Well-Known Member
this is the very elitism that prop 215 inadvertently caused, at least i can only hope it was inadvertent. the ignorance is that some folks don't realize that it is everyone's right to consume. the selfishness is that some folks believe they have a greater right to consume because of their circumstances and legal backing.
abe23
Active Member
No, it's just that some of us have a problem with going to a doctor and playing up some minor ailment, simply in order to get a card. I wouldn't go the doctor and pretend I have backpain to get some percocets....I don't see why I would do that for pot. As a semi-responsible adult, I want to be able to legally consume marijuana recreationally without having to lie about my health situation. And if the price to pay for that is a small tax on my pot, so be it...
Scuba
Well-Known Member
First off you KEEP assuming that everyone with a medical card is "playing" up an ailment. Just because you don't believe someone has a real reason.
Second, it's not just taxes. I wish people like you would see the big picture.
Scuba
Well-Known Member
I never said that, and never put words in my mouth with your bullshit ideals behind them. THEIR NOT MINE!!
Now that that's said. Aren't you the one without sin, pointing fingers at "folks" who don't have to care about cops busting in their door because of legal backing that they have.
And don't think for a second that you will get anything for free from this Government because that's never going to happen. Everyone WON"t have the right to consume don't you get that, not on a federal level, but with medical backing it makes it so much easier.
It's medicine for the soul and the mind.
abe23
Active Member
No, I don't. I'm fairly certain there are people in cali who have a legitimate need for MMJ. I do know for a fact that a lot of folks make up some bullshit about not being able to sleep or having mysterious backpain in order to get a card and that those people make it hard for the legitimate MMJ people to be taken seriously...
Second, what else is it about. The 5x5 limit? Seems better than the current 0x0 limit. The fact that the bill provides for penalties for buying weed for minors? Do you really think there were ever be a bill that has a snowballs chance in hell of passing without that?
Please explain to the people like me (i.e. those who don't live in la-la-land) what we are missing?
Scuba
Well-Known Member
For a matter of fact there is no size limit to your area it's how many plants.(but you would know that if you had a medical card) you will still have to get a license to grow your weed. ^_^ how do you think they will know if it's a 5x5 area at your house? and what about the third dimension huh?
Well, you will have to be 21 which i find pretty stupid if you can smoke cigs at 18. Which isn't that big of a deal but still fucked up. If you can die for you country why can't you drink or smoke pot?
There is also the problem with the Federal Government, with out medical backing at that point your a sitting duck. The FED with rip you a knew one unless you have a valid reason other then " Oh, the State said I could!" don't be blind of blunt fact.
abe23
Active Member
Ok, so your argument is this:
A) Right now anyone with a medical card can do what they please as long as they respect plant limits. Everyone else can go get fucked.
B) There's a 21 age limit just as there is with alcohol. I couldn't agree more with you that if you can buy a gun, fight for your country and sign contracts, you should be able to get drunk or high. That's another question altogether.
C) The federal government will interfere. So we should wait until the federal government changes it's position on cannabis to try to pass any legalization for recreational use at the state level? Really? That might take a while you know. In the meantime, you're cool since you have a medical card, the rest of us are liable to be locked up. Until some state goes ahead with something like this, the feds won't change their attitude. Cali seems like a good place to start.
A) Right now anyone with a medical card can do what they please as long as they respect plant limits. Everyone else can go get fucked.
B) There's a 21 age limit just as there is with alcohol. I couldn't agree more with you that if you can buy a gun, fight for your country and sign contracts, you should be able to get drunk or high. That's another question altogether.
C) The federal government will interfere. So we should wait until the federal government changes it's position on cannabis to try to pass any legalization for recreational use at the state level? Really? That might take a while you know. In the meantime, you're cool since you have a medical card, the rest of us are liable to be locked up. Until some state goes ahead with something like this, the feds won't change their attitude. Cali seems like a good place to start.
medicineman
New Member
I couldn't agree more. It is the absolute arrogance of the cardholders that make this battle. If they could see it from the other side, I'm pretty sure they would have second thoughts. I'd bet there are way more un-carded smokers than those with cards. Seems I also agree with Ice-Under with this one, although he couldn't resist a swipe at "government takeover" with his post, typical of the arrogance of Libertarians. They want it both ways, less government and more freedom, even when it takes the government to provide the amenities that make life as we know it comfortable. Seems they dream of life in the 1800s, riding their white horses to market on dirt roads, churning their own butter, milking cows by hand, shoveling shit out of the barn, planting their crops by hand, etc., with the long arm of the government miles away. Sorry fellas, we can't and won't go back. Adjust yourselves.
undertheice
Well-Known Member
i'm not quite sure what this little tantrum was all about, but i've gotten quite used to such outbursts. you may find it useful to pick selected statements from my post and back away from them, but you miss the point of the whole by doing so. that point is that much of the medical community is quite content to sit back on their collective ass and pat themselves on the back for the wonderful strides they think they have accomplished. they've gotten theirs and see no point to going further. that the majority of the legalization movement was firmly behind them seems to have been forgotten, now that they have what we all deserve. that "first step", as false as it may be, would never have come about if millions of advocates who did not qualify for those magic cards hadn't paved the way for the few. now that a "real" first step is at hand, the fear and selfishness of those few are playing a part in denying the access that we all deserve. the dim possibility that they may lose some small bit of their advantage seems to be enough that they would sacrifice the rights of the rest of the community.
you've also confused me with this garbage about getting stuff for free from the government and bringing the fed into this whole thing. in case you've forgotten, this is a state-wide proposition. we all know that the federal clowns will do everything in their power to quash 19 if it is passed and that even local governments will balk at allowing its measures to be implemented. we saw it with 215 and there is no reason to believe things will be different this time around. "medical backing" certainly had little effect on the raids and confiscations. we have all watched as the dea has insisted on enforcing their own brand of law in the sovereign state of california and as a number of entrepreneurs have seen their enterprises damaged and destroyed. in this respect, any corporate backing for 19 may be a bit of a savior. joe schmo may have little defense against the forces of the federal government, but the resources of big business will certainly have more luck in combating those federal thugs. that will be the greatest price paid for attempting to regain the right to the ownership over our own bodies, the cost of battling the intrusive nanny-state and their near psychotic need for control.
weed ain't no cure-all. it is moderately effective in a variety of cases and certainly a better alternative than the poisons pumped out by the pharmaceutical companies, but it isn't some grand panacea. it does not contain the secrets of the universe or expand the consciousness beyond any normal awareness. it merely allows us to look at the world with slightly different eyes and occasionally find some answers that we didn't know we already had. it isn't holy, any more than an ear of corn or a blade of grass is holy. it allows relaxation, enjoyment of the simple things in life and a meager escape from the pains and woes of what we experience every day.
undertheice
Well-Known Member
illegal immigration and prop 19, two reasons to believe that hell may very well be freezing over as we speak.
of course i desire less governmental interference instead of the nanny-state you so adore. have you forgotten where this insane prohibition began or who it is that refuses to perform the simple function of border protection with which it is charged? i'm no fool that believes we can abolish government tomorrow, but i also see no reason to constantly increase the size and scope of government if our goal is the people's freedom from oppression. where you see business and the quest for profit as the greatest danger to the people, i have noticed that it isn't business that has all the guns.
Scuba
Well-Known Member
now look who's arrogant, way to be a hypocrite
medicineman
New Member
Arrogant? Hardly, Actually I have no dog in this hunt. I can be absolutely objective. It matters nothing to me either way as I don't partake any longer. I see it from the practical view. The more progress we make in breaking down the barriers to the freedom to partake in any substance we so desire, the better. as progress happens and non-smokers see that pot smokers are not the evil demons of the 20s and 30s as portrayed by the mind fuck films of the period, the more chance we have to progress, Maybe that's why I'm called a progressive, and other more nefarious names used by the mind wash on the right.
Hayduke
Well-Known Member
voted yes in the poll...concerned about the wording ESPECIALLY the smoking in front of children...I AM NOT HIDING! I AM NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG!!!!! How could Lee actually include extra felonies and one ounce limit! I get both sides of this, but stay the fook out of my house...and 5x5 is a bit small.
abe23
Active Member
^^ you do realize that this law will not supersede the fourth amendment, right? You can still do whatever you want in your house and if you're allowed to have a 5x5 grow space it will be much harder for police to get a warrant to search your house in order to make sure you're not exceeding the limits. And frankly, most of us have gotten pretty good at keeping our growing habits on the DL...
And the 1 oz limit is for what you can carry around on you, NOT what you can store in your grow space....there's no limit on that in the bill.
I would say, all things considered, this bill is about as good as it's going to get for the time being.
And the 1 oz limit is for what you can carry around on you, NOT what you can store in your grow space....there's no limit on that in the bill.
I would say, all things considered, this bill is about as good as it's going to get for the time being.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
thank you for reiterating this point. the verbiage of the bill allows you to store as much as you want in that 5x5 area and does not take weight into account, only space.