Solar power.
- Thread starter panhead
- Start date
panhead
Well-Known Member
Allright you !!!!!Hey I'm in Michigan too.. Good luck getting much money back form are illustrate leader's they do such a fine job of taking care of us..
I know,its scary counting on government to pay up.
This solar deal really isnt about me breaking even or even making money from selling power back,its more about me being afraid of the "what if" kinda shit,im a pretty frugal guy & being broke scares the hell out of me,the mere thought of not being able to afford my bills is scary as hell,the closer i get to retirement the more i worry,my wife is allready very sick & even with my health insurance im paying over $600 a month in co payments for her medicine alone,then another $200 a month in co payments for my medicine,what if my savings runs out or if my union pension goes belly up & i cant buy her the medicine she needs,fear of not being able to provide is the driving force behind the solar.
Im scared as hell about my pension,i wouldnt be the 1st guy to get hammered once a pension goes belly up,or the first retiree to loose their health care coverage,its scary to even think about ending up like alot of elderly people in this country where they have to make a choice between paying bills over eating food or getting medicine they need,i dont want to end up a senior citizen who has to make decisions like that.
Another reason is my children,who the hell knows if there will even be work for them 10 yerars from now,at the very least they will have income from our rental properties & if i get solar going they will have a place to live that costs them nothing or very little to live,you know how bad the ecomony is here in michigan & its about covering all the bases i can before i retire.
yea it differs from state to state.....i looked into it awhile back but there really wasnt that good of information i could find. i think its a great idea tho. if your in michigan then keep in mind winter and also ive read something about how the pannels have to be at a certin angle for the sun etc etc?? dont know if thats true so dont take my word for it but i live in the Midwest smack dab in the middle ; ) so i get all 4 seasons!!! good luck
BigBudBalls
Well-Known Member
(I'm jumping from the first post)
Been looking into this for quite some time
But grid-tied, typically is a battery-less system. works during the day, sucks from grid during night.
grid-tied with batteries, sucks from grid when batteries die.
Full off grid, when batteries die, so do you.
solar is really expensive. (for electric. its cost effective for hot water)
The solar 'roof shingles' are a bear to install since each shingle needs to be wired in the attic. And they only put out 1/2 the power of a 'real' panel of the same sq footage. (but look SO much sexier)
Panels work best when cool. Loose efficiency as they heat up. AZ has great sun, but get a *little* warm.
Their angle should be adjusted as the seasons change. (not much, but its maint that needs to be done. but also a good time to wash them too)
You really should have a roof that faces south.
Typical warranty is 80% of rated output for 20 years (not bad, eh?)
Now, ponder wind. There is a 400W small turbine out there for $600 (home depot even sells it) but with wind turbines, the mast typically costs as much as the turbine. But I don't think you can get 400W of solar for $1200 (a 120W solar panel is roughly $600)
But you will need wind. MI should be OK year round. The one I'm thinking about maxes output at 20MPH, and starts at 8MPH.
(I've been logging my local NOAA station data every 1/2 our for my local wind speed, gusts, and direction to see if I can swing it, Ain't looking like it)
Oh, but with both systems, the chargers will suck up power and inverters are horribly inefficient.
(also the elec cost link in my sig, has a tab at the bottom for solar. You can do a quick down and dirty ROI of a system)
Been looking into this for quite some time
But grid-tied, typically is a battery-less system. works during the day, sucks from grid during night.
grid-tied with batteries, sucks from grid when batteries die.
Full off grid, when batteries die, so do you.
solar is really expensive. (for electric. its cost effective for hot water)
The solar 'roof shingles' are a bear to install since each shingle needs to be wired in the attic. And they only put out 1/2 the power of a 'real' panel of the same sq footage. (but look SO much sexier)
Panels work best when cool. Loose efficiency as they heat up. AZ has great sun, but get a *little* warm.
Their angle should be adjusted as the seasons change. (not much, but its maint that needs to be done. but also a good time to wash them too)
You really should have a roof that faces south.
Typical warranty is 80% of rated output for 20 years (not bad, eh?)
Now, ponder wind. There is a 400W small turbine out there for $600 (home depot even sells it) but with wind turbines, the mast typically costs as much as the turbine. But I don't think you can get 400W of solar for $1200 (a 120W solar panel is roughly $600)
But you will need wind. MI should be OK year round. The one I'm thinking about maxes output at 20MPH, and starts at 8MPH.
(I've been logging my local NOAA station data every 1/2 our for my local wind speed, gusts, and direction to see if I can swing it, Ain't looking like it)
Oh, but with both systems, the chargers will suck up power and inverters are horribly inefficient.
(also the elec cost link in my sig, has a tab at the bottom for solar. You can do a quick down and dirty ROI of a system)
panhead
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info big bud,im going to read your link as soon as i make this post.
The more i read up on solar the more i become aware of the problems i face with ending up 100% solar powered,ive read extensively on this now for about a week & the limitations im going to be under are becomming more aparent every day,not to mention i drastically under estimated the expense of the project,at this point im not even sure if we can afford to buy a system large enough to take care of all our electric needs.
The wife & i have been talking about this & depending on what the salesman has to say after he does the evaluation of our site we may end up looking into wind powered generators,no matter what we have decided to go with solar hot water heating,this aspect of solar is pretty much assured to pay for itself fairly fast with as much hot water as we use,we have 2 washers & 2 dryers that seem to be going 24 hours a day,every time i turn around both my sons are over at the house doing their laundry & my wife is nuts with that shit,i take everything in sight & pack the machine full to the rim,not her,she has a different wash for every peice of clothing she owns,shit's expensive as hell too.
We've decided to add sky lights to about half the room's in our home to cut electric costs in the day time,i can do the skylight installs myself & have my company order the kits manufacturer direct for about 60% of what i can get them for from a supplier if i buy them.
I talked briefly with a junior architect from the company i work for about my solar dreams & he told me to investigate solar ventilation as well as special window film coverings,he swears that both these things combigned will drastically lower my cooling costs in the summer time,ive just started looking into the solar ventilation & so far it looks like a 100% diy that im qualified to do myself to save further.
I'll post the final numbers once i get the estimates on different types of alternative energy systems.
BigBudBalls
Well-Known Member
You can DIY a solar water heater too. You still keep the gas.oil/electric as a back up. Theres a company in Tuscon Az that has an innovative unit.
The solar salesman will tout the tax benefits. (and probably talk mostly about it) With a $50-75K hit, they will harp on very deduction *they* don't have to make. Maybe have your CPA there at the same time
Plus batteries don't last forever. And they ain't cheap. Solar/wind systems really should be though of as scalable. Increasing capacity isn't as easy as it seems. You may have to replace inverters, not add them.
Have a stream on the property? micro-hydro.
Also ponder those solar tubes or light pipe or what ever they call them. Small, but great light. I'd be a bit cautious with full skylights in those MI winters, can lose a lot of heat through them.
The solar salesman will tout the tax benefits. (and probably talk mostly about it) With a $50-75K hit, they will harp on very deduction *they* don't have to make. Maybe have your CPA there at the same time
Plus batteries don't last forever. And they ain't cheap. Solar/wind systems really should be though of as scalable. Increasing capacity isn't as easy as it seems. You may have to replace inverters, not add them.Have a stream on the property? micro-hydro.
Also ponder those solar tubes or light pipe or what ever they call them. Small, but great light. I'd be a bit cautious with full skylights in those MI winters, can lose a lot of heat through them.
panhead
Well-Known Member
Its a go & i cant wait for spring to get started 
Here it is fellas,im purchasing the Power-Save Solar 2000 model package & going to do the install myself with the help of a master electrican friend of mine,he is going to wire the system up for me & pull the permits under his liscense,in trade for his time im going to bring a small crane home from work along with a clam & dredg his pond to add depth so his fancy fish can live easier through the winter when the pond is froze over,according to the manufacturer the PSS-2000 system will cut our power draw from 20% to 30% anually which i think is a bit of a generous estimate,if i get a 15% savings it will meet my goal in savings & will easily pay for itself within 10 to 20 years.
http://www.power-save1200.com/solar.html
My total cost after federal & state rebates is going to be right around $7,000 USD,this will supply us with a peak power of 2,050 watts with the average power being between 1,000 watts to 1,500 watts,this is using the grid tie system & no batteries.
This is the largest system that my roof can accept without looking like some terrible eye sore,the area on our deck on the 2nd story of the home is not acceptable due to shade issues so a roof mount system is the only place i have left without taking over the back yard or cutting up our shade trees ,the wife aint going for the yard all screwed up or cutting any trees down.
We've also looked heavily into solar ventilation to help cut cooling costs in the hot summer months,i purchased 1 solar intake & 2 solar exhausts for a little under $1,000 for all 3 peices,from what ive researched this should cut my cooling costs by about 10% to 20%,which in our case is a large savings,we spend about $400 a month in june/july & august on cooling,the home is large & we like it cool,these are on back order & will take me about 6 weeks to have shipped out,i could not get any discounts on these items,these also come with a 10 year NDL gaurantee or a 20 year LDA gaurantee,i chose the 10 year,im figuring this system will pay for itself in about 8 years or less.
Ive had the purchasing agent at my company get quotes for the skylights we need to cut lighting costs,i purchased the Solar Sun Tube models that just look like a little round bubble on the roof then a reflective tube is connected to the bubble & leads direct to the ceiling,at the ceiling the tube is covered by a cover that resembles a regular light cover,these normally cost about $350 each & got them for less than $200 each,we bought 5 of these units for a total cost of a little less than $1,000 USD,these will be an easy DIY for me to accomplish & should arrive at my office within the next 2 weeks,this aspect of our solar investment may never repay itself because its only replacing 5 regular 24 watt cfl bulbs but it will add beauty & possibly small value to our home so its a worthy expense from our stand point.
The solar hot water heater is still being debated,mainly over which model/manufacturer we will end up going with,once we pick a manufacturer & model i'll post what we've decided but from the models i have to pick from that meet our needs it looks like i'll need to spend between $3,000 to $5,000 on the hot water heating system for a top of the line unit.
Ive also purchased a few other DIY solar devices to cut costs even more,we have new solar yard lighting on the way,as well as all new solar security lights for the barn,house & garage,ive got a total of $1,100 spent on these systems which are being shipped in as well,were looking at between 4 to 5 years for these systems to pay for themselves.
Ive spent a little over $3,000 so far & once i get the solar package along with the Solar hot water heating system locked in my estimate is very close $15,000 USD,then allowing myself another $2,000 in expenses for misc my total expense will be very close to $17,000,this will give me a 2,000 watt grid tie system,total solar hot water supply,total solar yard & security lighting,total solar ventilation as well as 5 full time solar light sources from the sky lights.
This isnt going to supply all our needs but an investiment under $20,000 on my part seems very good to us & should be able to repay itself in total in 10 to 20 years.
If anybody see's any flaws in my plan or any way i can increase savings please post your thoughts,im trying very hard to get this rolling & ready for a late spring install,i still have a few weeks before i order the Power-Save 2,000 watt system,hopefully by then i'll have recieved all the info i have requested from the hot water heater manufacturers & have made a decision by then & can make both purchases at the same time.
Here it is fellas,im purchasing the Power-Save Solar 2000 model package & going to do the install myself with the help of a master electrican friend of mine,he is going to wire the system up for me & pull the permits under his liscense,in trade for his time im going to bring a small crane home from work along with a clam & dredg his pond to add depth so his fancy fish can live easier through the winter when the pond is froze over,according to the manufacturer the PSS-2000 system will cut our power draw from 20% to 30% anually which i think is a bit of a generous estimate,if i get a 15% savings it will meet my goal in savings & will easily pay for itself within 10 to 20 years.
http://www.power-save1200.com/solar.html
My total cost after federal & state rebates is going to be right around $7,000 USD,this will supply us with a peak power of 2,050 watts with the average power being between 1,000 watts to 1,500 watts,this is using the grid tie system & no batteries.
This is the largest system that my roof can accept without looking like some terrible eye sore,the area on our deck on the 2nd story of the home is not acceptable due to shade issues so a roof mount system is the only place i have left without taking over the back yard or cutting up our shade trees ,the wife aint going for the yard all screwed up or cutting any trees down
.We've also looked heavily into solar ventilation to help cut cooling costs in the hot summer months,i purchased 1 solar intake & 2 solar exhausts for a little under $1,000 for all 3 peices,from what ive researched this should cut my cooling costs by about 10% to 20%,which in our case is a large savings,we spend about $400 a month in june/july & august on cooling,the home is large & we like it cool,these are on back order & will take me about 6 weeks to have shipped out,i could not get any discounts on these items,these also come with a 10 year NDL gaurantee or a 20 year LDA gaurantee,i chose the 10 year,im figuring this system will pay for itself in about 8 years or less.
Ive had the purchasing agent at my company get quotes for the skylights we need to cut lighting costs,i purchased the Solar Sun Tube models that just look like a little round bubble on the roof then a reflective tube is connected to the bubble & leads direct to the ceiling,at the ceiling the tube is covered by a cover that resembles a regular light cover,these normally cost about $350 each & got them for less than $200 each,we bought 5 of these units for a total cost of a little less than $1,000 USD,these will be an easy DIY for me to accomplish & should arrive at my office within the next 2 weeks,this aspect of our solar investment may never repay itself because its only replacing 5 regular 24 watt cfl bulbs but it will add beauty & possibly small value to our home so its a worthy expense from our stand point.
The solar hot water heater is still being debated,mainly over which model/manufacturer we will end up going with,once we pick a manufacturer & model i'll post what we've decided but from the models i have to pick from that meet our needs it looks like i'll need to spend between $3,000 to $5,000 on the hot water heating system for a top of the line unit.
Ive also purchased a few other DIY solar devices to cut costs even more,we have new solar yard lighting on the way,as well as all new solar security lights for the barn,house & garage,ive got a total of $1,100 spent on these systems which are being shipped in as well,were looking at between 4 to 5 years for these systems to pay for themselves.
Ive spent a little over $3,000 so far & once i get the solar package along with the Solar hot water heating system locked in my estimate is very close $15,000 USD,then allowing myself another $2,000 in expenses for misc my total expense will be very close to $17,000,this will give me a 2,000 watt grid tie system,total solar hot water supply,total solar yard & security lighting,total solar ventilation as well as 5 full time solar light sources from the sky lights.
This isnt going to supply all our needs but an investiment under $20,000 on my part seems very good to us & should be able to repay itself in total in 10 to 20 years.
If anybody see's any flaws in my plan or any way i can increase savings please post your thoughts,im trying very hard to get this rolling & ready for a late spring install,i still have a few weeks before i order the Power-Save 2,000 watt system,hopefully by then i'll have recieved all the info i have requested from the hot water heater manufacturers & have made a decision by then & can make both purchases at the same time.
flamdrags420
Well-Known Member
This is something I tinkered around with a while back that I would like to implement when I finally frame a proper roof over my garage. I'm sorry that I don't have any links or anything to point to now. From what I recall, you can get some great tax breaks, but my understanding is that they won't fork anything up front. However, I think some banks will have special rates based on "green" upgrades and additions to home for loans and such. It might be worth it to call around. I know I personally don't have what will be an investment of 10K+ upfront, but a special rate on a home improvement loan would be a good deal especially if the thing will eventually pay for itself. I'll be following info you will add, and will put up anything I may run across. The tax break the following year might be great too.
EDIT: Sorry I totally missed reading the last page. It sounds like you got it in check. Good luck and keep us posted.
EDIT: Sorry I totally missed reading the last page. It sounds like you got it in check. Good luck and keep us posted.
greenearth5
Well-Known Member
There is allot of great information in this post, but on the other hand there are some things that i have not seen anybody mention. I like the thought of using renewable resources to provide for your homes energy consumption. But in order to fullfill this need 100% you should do so in a diverse way. Dont limit yourself to only using solar power. Use wind, a solar heater, renivate your home and bring it up to the 2009 energy efficent standards, get energy efficent appliances. Most of your homes energy consumpition is thru wastefull appliances and the heat exchange in your outside walls. This is a waste of your dollars and that is what you need to address first!!!
Once your house is up to date and using the most energy efficient appliances then you should consider getting some sort of renewable energy generator/collector. See if you just get some solar panels and throw them on your rooftop then its going to do you no good unless you are using energy efficient appliaces(because it would take too damn many solar collectors to power old apliances)!!! I can not stress this enough!!! Once your house is up to date then you WILL NOT NEED near as many things to make your electricity.
I would go with a diverse selection. I dont know if its windy their on the ground but if you could stick your hand 30-50 feet in the air then you will feel a breeze 24/7. Stick a small electric wind turbine on the side of your house or out in your yard someplace. Stick some solar panels on your roff top, use a solar water heater, if you have a swimming pool then you can use a solar water heater for that too (coiled tubes on your rooftop heat the water up). I would also MOST DEFFIENTLY remain hooked up to the grid. If your system decideds to take a shit on your forehead and leave you out in the dark then you can go to your garage and flip a switch to get power back from the grid. Also, you can have some over night storage batteries that soak up the extra juice during the day OR you can go with the wind tubines that run better during the night then during the day and produce just as much electricty at night then your roff top colectors do during the day...
Well thats enough info... i hope somebody reads this....
Hit me up if you need some more info bro
Once your house is up to date and using the most energy efficient appliances then you should consider getting some sort of renewable energy generator/collector. See if you just get some solar panels and throw them on your rooftop then its going to do you no good unless you are using energy efficient appliaces(because it would take too damn many solar collectors to power old apliances)!!! I can not stress this enough!!! Once your house is up to date then you WILL NOT NEED near as many things to make your electricity.
I would go with a diverse selection. I dont know if its windy their on the ground but if you could stick your hand 30-50 feet in the air then you will feel a breeze 24/7. Stick a small electric wind turbine on the side of your house or out in your yard someplace. Stick some solar panels on your roff top, use a solar water heater, if you have a swimming pool then you can use a solar water heater for that too (coiled tubes on your rooftop heat the water up). I would also MOST DEFFIENTLY remain hooked up to the grid. If your system decideds to take a shit on your forehead and leave you out in the dark then you can go to your garage and flip a switch to get power back from the grid. Also, you can have some over night storage batteries that soak up the extra juice during the day OR you can go with the wind tubines that run better during the night then during the day and produce just as much electricty at night then your roff top colectors do during the day...
Well thats enough info... i hope somebody reads this....
Hit me up if you need some more info bro
flamdrags420
Well-Known Member
Ya that reminds also. Find home building (you can check on back logs and also subscribe to their online site which has all their atrticles ever) They had some great shit even back a few years on cutting cost and upping efficiency. I remember one house they had on there has a giant deep well that was like 100 feet or so that stored water. They used stones and solar to heat the water in that well. Somehow they used that water to heat and cool their home and recovered some of the water loss thrugh dehumidifiers and such.
I know a bit off topic on your direct quest, but hopefully you might find some good ideas on fine hombuilding's website.
I think a subscription is only like 9 a month. You could try it for a month to gather other ideas.
I know a bit off topic on your direct quest, but hopefully you might find some good ideas on fine hombuilding's website.
I think a subscription is only like 9 a month. You could try it for a month to gather other ideas.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
I took a class taught by Paul Breaux, who designed and built this house.
http://www.homes-across-america.org/search/details.cfm?who=55&Feature=all&action=showDetails&Query=byState
http://www.dreamgreenhomes.com/plans/chezsoleil.htm
It's 100% off grid. I've been there a couple of times and it is awesome.
http://www.homes-across-america.org/search/details.cfm?who=55&Feature=all&action=showDetails&Query=byState
http://www.dreamgreenhomes.com/plans/chezsoleil.htm
It's 100% off grid. I've been there a couple of times and it is awesome.
greenearth5
Well-Known Member
flamdrags420: you are talking about thermal energy... that is an extremely awesome way to get heat or cool your house.... That is done thru the heat exchange of the earth... you dig up the ground around your house and lay a long ass zig zagged pipe structure (similiar to a radiator) and fill it with a particular fluid.. when you crank your ac on in the summer the fluid will come from the ground and thru your house and then back into the ground... this exchanges the coolness put off fromt he fluid with the hot air in your home (therefore cooling your house)
Thats an awesome way to heat or cool your house... saves hundreds of dollars a month on your heating/cooling bills
EXCELENT SUGESTION FLAMDRAGS420
Thats an awesome way to heat or cool your house... saves hundreds of dollars a month on your heating/cooling bills
EXCELENT SUGESTION FLAMDRAGS420
xochipili
Active Member
Hey Pan, you said that your home and or property wasnt able to support a 100% solar system, did you find out what it would need to support that? Say I'm shopping for a home and would like to do this eventually too, what would I look for in a property/home that might be able to better support a system that provides near 100% solar?
greenearth5
Well-Known Member
You should not limit yourself to only "SOLAR"! Solar is not the only good source of renewable energy dude. Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Solar water heaters .... these are all good to power your house dude...
Yeah, you might NOT be able to power your house 100% from solar... not everybody does. But those people that can not power there house that way actually power there house from other sources.
Think outside the thread man....
Yeah, you might NOT be able to power your house 100% from solar... not everybody does. But those people that can not power there house that way actually power there house from other sources.
Think outside the thread man....
greenearth5
Well-Known Member
xochipili
Active Member
Okay, I get your point, and I appreciate your input, but let me be specific, and direct this question towards mr. panhead, specifically, since he was the one with the particular situation on hand, and talked to a company rep. that told him in person his home/property could not support the type of system he wanted: 1) why could it not support the system?and 2) what would it take to support that kind of system? If you cant answer these 2 questions directly, than please disregard this response.
greenearth5
Well-Known Member
Ignoring the fact that Ive written articles for the local newspaper about renewable energy. Ignoring the fact that Ive met with the mayor and several companies around town about having our local power derived from a diverse spectrum of renewable sources, for a new city program. Ignoring the fact that Ive studied up on this topic for personal reasons. Ignoring the fact that I have taken college courses studying this subject. I would still say that the answer to your question is energy efficiency.
If your house is not energy efficient enough then you will NEVER EVER EVER be able to put enough SOLAR collectors of any sort on top of your house. The only way to bypass this is to make your house energy efficient, use other methods of energy sources like wind and geothermal, put some of the solar collectors in your back yard, or just fucking forget the idea!
If your house is not energy efficient enough then you will NEVER EVER EVER be able to put enough SOLAR collectors of any sort on top of your house. The only way to bypass this is to make your house energy efficient, use other methods of energy sources like wind and geothermal, put some of the solar collectors in your back yard, or just fucking forget the idea!