Increasing the THC and CBD levels with Mn and Ir - REALLY?

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
Cool. Eat more trout and spinach, those have the highest natural Mn content. Fish or leafy greens is the basic answer.
So can we conclude that fish meal has higher levels of Mn? I recently began adding fish bone and crab meal to my mixes. Too early to say how well it works, but so far my plants are digging it.
Initially I had been avoiding it because the shit stinks -- especially crab. I was amazed how quickly the smell disappeared once the soil was mixed.
 

NoFucks2Give

Well-Known Member
Eat more trout and spinach
I know it's off topic but it's my issues with accuracy that got me here. Trout chimes in at #800 in Mn content according to the USDA database of foods. Spinach, #228.

Mn is arguably the most difficult essential mineral for a diet to acquire RDA without supplements.

And tying things back into the topic, possibly this is why it's important to supplement a plant diet with Mn.

I wrote an app using the USDA Foods Database.
http://www.pizzasoftware.com/m/food.php

Check the checkbox at the top of the Mn column.
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
Could we also conclude that blood meal would be a good source of N if you also want extra iron???
I've been debating using blood meal in nute tea. it is *very* soluble.
Right now I'm hooked on peruvian seabird guana, but I'm starting to run low... :sad:
 

Heil Tweetler

Well-Known Member
Could we also conclude that blood meal would be a good source of N if you also want extra iron???
I've been debating using blood meal in nute tea. it is *very* soluble.
Right now I'm hooked on peruvian seabird guana, but I'm starting to run low... :sad:
Have your soil tested to be sure iron will be beneficial. If you have a high organic matter soil, iron is constantly being made available through reduction.

Iron oxide solubilization by organic matter and its effect on iron availabilityBuy options
Plant and Soil

January 1991, Volume 130, Issue 1, pp 27–34

Iron oxide solubilization by organic matter and its effect on iron availability
  • W. L. Lindsay
  1. 1.
Article
DOI: 10.1007/BF00011852

Cite this article as:
Lindsay, W.L. Plant Soil (1991) 130: 27. doi:10.1007/BF00011852
Abstract
The solubility of Fe in soils is largely controlled by Fe oxides; ferrihydrite, amorphous ferric hydroxide, and soil-Fe are generally believed to exert the major control. Fe(III) hydrolysis species constitute the major Fe species in solution. Other inorganic Fe complexes are present, but their concentrations are much less than the hydrolysis species. Organic complexes of Fe including those of organic acids like citrate, oxalate, and malate contribute slightly to increased Fe solubility in acid soils, but not in alkaline soils.

The most important influence that organic matter has on the solubilization of Fe is through reduction. Respiration of organic matter creates reduction microsites in soil where Fe2+ concentrations increase above those of the Fe(III) hydrolysis species. Fluctuating redox conditions in these microsites are conducive to the formation of a mixed valency ferrosic hydroxide. This metastable precipitate maintains an elevated level of soluble inorganic Fe for prolonged periods and increases Fe availability to plants. The release of reducing agents and acids next to roots, as well as the production of siderophores by microorganisms within the rhizosphere, contribute to the solubilization and increased availability of Fe to plants.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Have your soil tested to be sure iron will be beneficial. If you have a high organic matter soil, iron is constantly being made available through reduction.

Iron oxide solubilization by organic matter and its effect on iron availabilityBuy options
Plant and Soil

January 1991, Volume 130, Issue 1, pp 27–34

Iron oxide solubilization by organic matter and its effect on iron availability
  • W. L. Lindsay
  1. 1.
Article
DOI: 10.1007/BF00011852

Cite this article as:
Lindsay, W.L. Plant Soil (1991) 130: 27. doi:10.1007/BF00011852
Abstract
The solubility of Fe in soils is largely controlled by Fe oxides; ferrihydrite, amorphous ferric hydroxide, and soil-Fe are generally believed to exert the major control. Fe(III) hydrolysis species constitute the major Fe species in solution. Other inorganic Fe complexes are present, but their concentrations are much less than the hydrolysis species. Organic complexes of Fe including those of organic acids like citrate, oxalate, and malate contribute slightly to increased Fe solubility in acid soils, but not in alkaline soils.

The most important influence that organic matter has on the solubilization of Fe is through reduction. Respiration of organic matter creates reduction microsites in soil where Fe2+ concentrations increase above those of the Fe(III) hydrolysis species. Fluctuating redox conditions in these microsites are conducive to the formation of a mixed valency ferrosic hydroxide. This metastable precipitate maintains an elevated level of soluble inorganic Fe for prolonged periods and increases Fe availability to plants. The release of reducing agents and acids next to roots, as well as the production of siderophores by microorganisms within the rhizosphere, contribute to the solubilization and increased availability of Fe to plants.

Well put!

If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water....It takes a Boron or green sand pre-filter to remove it properly!

P.S. - While poorly worded in that original post...I still like some higher K levels in my feeds - :mrgreen: ;-);-)

Your dutiful testing of soils has me paying attention...... Whats that running you where you are, or are you having the FDA do the testing like farm soils?
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Well put!

If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water....It takes a Boron or green sand pre-filter to remove it properly!

P.S. - While poorly worded in that original post...I still like some higher K levels in my feeds - :mrgreen: ;-);-)

Your dutiful testing of soils has me paying attention...... Whats that running you where you are, or are you having the FDA do the testing like farm soils?
Could you explain what organic iron is. Just getting in to water filter equipment and never heard that term used.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Could you explain what organic iron is. Just getting in to water filter equipment and never heard that term used.
@Heil Tweetler

It's also known as Ferrous Iron or "clearwater iron". The one that's hard to get out. Generally it doesn't bind to the resin grains well and the part that does - doesn't salt wash back off well....

Boron pre-filters used to be popular but, needed to be replaced every 3 years or so (not cheap). Depending on your Iron concentrations.
Now popular is magnesium greensand as an Ferrous Iron "filter". It requires only moderate back-washing and is "regenerated" with potassium permanganate at rates of around 1.75 oz per cft of greensand.... I have high Ferrous content and do that every year.

There are a cpl other methods that can be used but, don't work as well, are more costly and can require up to 2 extra full size tanks.

That help guys?
 

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
I thought it was called soluble iron. And there can be iron eating bacteria complicating matters.

Sulfer can be the same way in well water. The bacteria eating and exuding is what smells like rotten eggs.

My water causes light but noticeable iron stains.

But it is manageable through watering with good runoff. Pretty high ppm containing water can be too. Mine is only .3 ec.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Yup just never heard it called organic iron, just iron lol. I was thinking you were referring to iron bacteria, another nasty ;).
It's an old school term. Some water softener makers still use it.....

I thought it was called soluble iron. And there can be iron eating bacteria complicating matters.

Sulfer can be the same way in well water. The bacteria eating and exuding is what smells like rotten eggs.

My water causes light but noticeable iron stains.

But it is manageable through watering with good runoff. Pretty high ppm containing water can be too. Mine is only .3 ec.
Bacterial iron is nasty shit! Slime at fixtures and filters is a sure sign. The use of chlorine to backwash into the aquaphor and heavy carbon filtration is needed with it......This method is bad for the environment and there are larger chlorine tank systems that preclude that. Thankfully it's not common!

The other form is Ferric iron....This is the "brown water" type of iron......They do an oxidation and precipitation step with this form. Still leaves some changed to the Ferris and that goes through your system so that's the FE you taste if you have an Iron water taste and a water "softener". Water softeners are to soften water from various mineral compounds like the Ca family over metal compounds.
This is part of why you really need another step for removing iron types...
 

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
It's an old school term. Some water softener makers still use it.....



Bacterial iron is nasty shit! Slime at fixtures and filters is a sure sign. The use of chlorine to backwash into the aquaphor and heavy carbon filtration is needed with it......This method is bad for the environment and there are larger chlorine tank systems that preclude that. Thankfully it's not common!

The other form is Ferric iron....This is the "brown water" type of iron......They do an oxidation and precipitation step with this form. Still leaves some changed to the Ferris and that goes through your system so that's the FE you taste if you have an Iron water taste and a water "softener". Water softeners are to soften water from various mineral compounds like the Ca family over metal compounds.
This is part of why you really need another step for removing iron types...

Good thing the previous owners had a deep well drilled here. And a nice jet pump installed. The water is pretty much ideal for gardens. The small iron buildup hurts nothing and there is only a few ppm of sulfer eating bacteria so they get plenty of soluble micronutes each watering.

I use no filter for the garden. I use an ro filter for the humidifier to avoid bacteria. And calcium and iron buildup. Lots of it gets caught in the prefilter.
 
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ANC

Well-Known Member
I know it's off topic but it's my issues with accuracy that got me here. Trout chimes in at #800 in Mn content according to the USDA database of foods. Spinach, #228.

Mn is arguably the most difficult essential mineral for a diet to acquire RDA without supplements.

And tying things back into the topic, possibly this is why it's important to supplement a plant diet with Mn.

I wrote an app using the USDA Foods Database.
http://www.pizzasoftware.com/m/food.php

Check the checkbox at the top of the Mn column.
You have to look at each plant unless you are using clones.
I am running an experiment using seeds from the same flower.
They were all planted into grow bags filled from the same batch of coco coir mix.
One of them is an Mg and potassium whore. I would chuck it, but it is a fast grower, I'd like to see what it plans to do with the extra nutrients.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
You have to look at each plant unless you are using clones.
I am running an experiment using seeds from the same flower.
They were all planted into grow bags filled from the same batch of coco coir mix.
One of them is an Mg and potassium whore. I would chuck it, but it is a fast grower, I'd like to see what it plans to do with the extra nutrients.
Goes to say that "single flowers" seeds ares still differing pheno's.

Got 8 distinct pheno's out of an F1 breeding result. That was from the first 12 beans popped - 4 males and 8 females. All the females grew out distinctly different = 8 pheno's.
 

ANC

Well-Known Member
I think many of the "purple" strains we see just eat through potassium like a fat kid through a chocolate factory.
It is one of the nutrients that can be depleted the fastest, maybe 2 or 3 days from application.
That does not mean you need to slap a bunch on, as that will lead to magnesium lockout. But instead, you need to amend the soil or medium on an ongoing basis
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
It's an old school term. Some water softener makers still use it.....



Bacterial iron is nasty shit! Slime at fixtures and filters is a sure sign. The use of chlorine to backwash into the aquaphor and heavy carbon filtration is needed with it......This method is bad for the environment and there are larger chlorine tank systems that preclude that. Thankfully it's not common!

The other form is Ferric iron....This is the "brown water" type of iron......They do an oxidation and precipitation step with this form. Still leaves some changed to the Ferris and that goes through your system so that's the FE you taste if you have an Iron water taste and a water "softener". Water softeners are to soften water from various mineral compounds like the Ca family over metal compounds.
This is part of why you really need another step for removing iron types...
Open the back of your toilet and if it's got a black slime ..... yup you've got the slime, lots around here have it and I actually get the odd 5 gallon pail of 35% H2O2 from a guy that uses injection, otherwise buying the stuff is like buying plutonium here lol.
 

Heil Tweetler

Well-Known Member
Well put!

If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water....It takes a Boron or green sand pre-filter to remove it properly!

P.S. - While poorly worded in that original post...I still like some higher K levels in my feeds - :mrgreen: ;-);-)

Your dutiful testing of soils has me paying attention...... Whats that running you where you are, or are you having the FDA do the testing like farm soils?
Spectrum analytic tests are about 25. I work with an agronimist. The package he told me to use was $53. Previous tests with logan and Intl ag lab were about the same.

Re K. I consult with farmers and have been a life long gardener. Most of the farmers i work with and almost all of the MJ gardeners I discuss plant health with, agree that high K is a quality killer. I understand that it can drive highest yields. But it certainly doesn't drive highest nutritional content. I doubt it drives best genetic expression either.

This site is packed with info https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/
 

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Spectrum analytic tests are about 25. I work with an agronimist. The package he told me to use was $53. Previous tests with logan and Intl ag lab were about the same.

Re K. I consult with farmers and have been a life long gardener. Most of the farmers i work with and almost all of the MJ gardeners I discuss plant health with, agree that high K is a quality killer. I understand that it can drive highest yields. But it certainly doesn't drive highest nutritional content. I doubt it drives best genetic expression either.

This site is packed with info https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/

I have found what you say to be true in my limited experience even. I ditched the bloom bottle last year and only use a pretty balanced grow ratio and my yield and quality has gone up considerably.

I use amended soil and well water to be sure of plenty minerals available.

And the sativa leaning phenos can take 12 weeks sometimes and have souring long lasting highs.

And the smells and flavors are better too.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Spectrum analytic tests are about 25. I work with an agronimist. The package he told me to use was $53. Previous tests with logan and Intl ag lab were about the same.

Re K. I consult with farmers and have been a life long gardener. Most of the farmers i work with and almost all of the MJ gardeners I discuss plant health with, agree that high K is a quality killer. I understand that it can drive highest yields. But it certainly doesn't drive highest nutritional content. I doubt it drives best genetic expression either.

This site is packed with info https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/
First off, meant to say USDA. :roll:

Your correct. Use of extra K does add yield, if done right. I like to add a cpl of points in bloom after the 2nd week. Minor P increase and reduce some later. Use of more K late can influence color expression in plants that are able. Higher K in veg? Haven't found that to be exactly productive down the road.....Years ago when I was experimenting with finding my "best's" with differing synthetic ratio's. Found the line between good and overdose to be very fine, as once you go over. the plants stunt's and a clear sign is color expression in veg. Once you get that, too late!

As for MJ and reducing quality....Just started some experimenting with specific synthetic lines again. Friends and others in our little Co-op have done some eyeopening work with them. Thought I might give synthetic a shot again....May have to do some at what I liked to supplement to and not From the past synthetic use. Test the difference and see...

For the most part, build my soils (organic water only's) to recipes that came from years of building them. Your quoted amounts/methods (for Mn and Fe) and the testing has me rather interested in actually testing my different bloom formulas out. I could learn a lot from actually doing that. Being satisfied with what has been achieved, never sits well if I think I might do better....

I farm but, it's organic and don't express any supplementation of K in any of the tea's or mineral applications done to the soil. Our soils tend to be a tic over in K from normal/surrounding farm lands anyway (in USDA tests). In the final year of certification on the "new" dairy farm to the co-op. We set that up for the organic manure for use in other locations due to the cost/water reductions and other benefits of some moving away (somewhat) from AACT's.

Never much of a flower grower per-say, More of a tropical interest. Learning the ins and outs of succulents from seed....Something new to me..... My wife has absconded with some of my used and not replenished MJ soils for use with some of her squash and tomato's as an up-pot this year. You could see the very early coloring and when they went out. Got that classic light tan edge necrosis that signals K tox, after she put them out into full sun.....She came in and asked what happened. Took one look and told her that was from the increase in transpiration and there for the increase in up-take of the available nutrient in the soil.

Looked at her and said, "Now you understand why I told you not to use that soil for veggies? That soil has higher med./slow release P&K then you needed.....? It's about all that's left in that soil after the Long running Sativa's that were in it.... As soon as you added your first feeding, you over did the K....

So, anyway. This and your information have me looking to do some tests on fresh, used and re-amended soils to see exactly where those are.....I'll be better able to re-amend that way.....

All these years and I didn't think to try that......You've taught an old dog a trick he didn't consider. Even for a farmer...

Damn local USDA branch closed too.....I'll have to send to labs.....Might try friends at my college too....

GREAT INPUT!
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Could you explain what organic iron is. Just getting in to water filter equipment and never heard that term used.
For starters, hemoglobin.



ferredoxins.


If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water..
For crying out loud... it's Fe not FE.
 
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