Under what individual authority does government exist?

Red1966

Well-Known Member
I never claimed I am in favor of limited government authority, on your own property, you should be able to do what you want. But if a large group of people choose to give up a portion of their freedom to a small body of individuals, for the convenience of their services, then you can't be upset because they are going to force you to play by their rules when you want to use those services.

To give an example, let's pretend you own 100 acres of property, you farm and raise livestock there and you never leave those 100 acres because everything you want you produce there. You have also been given the option to elect to forego the services of the police and fire dept. Because you are self contained i
Believe you should be free from taxes and such, because the government has received no burden from you. Now you choose to open a store on these 100 acres, again you are self contained, the government has no right to tell you how that store is run, or maintained.

Now, you live on this 100 acres, self contained but now you want to sell some of your produce in town. So you walk into town to buy a truck, now you have to use public roads, to bring your truck back home and again to bring the produce to market. Then, I believe you are obligated to pay the taxes, follow the production standards and obey the laws of the govt for everything you are going to do outside your 100 acres.
I'm not understanding how you think this furthers your claim.
" then you can't be upset because they are going to force you to play by their rules when you want to use those services." You are forced "to play by their rules" whether you use those "services" or not.
In every instance you proposed, the individual is forced to comply with government edict.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
I'm not understanding how you think this furthers your claim.
" then you can't be upset because they are going to force you to play by their rules when you want to use those services." You are forced "to play by their rules" whether you use those "services" or not.
In every instance you proposed, the individual is forced to comply with government edict.
my point is, if you don't use government services, then they have no right to impose their regulations and taxes on you. I know that right now, wether you use government services or not they are still going to force compliance to their laws, but it shouldn't be that way.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
my point is, if you don't use government services, then they have no right to impose their regulations and taxes on you. I know that right now, wether you use government services or not they are still going to force compliance to their laws, but it shouldn't be that way.
So you seem to have totaly abandoned your "social contract"?
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
So you seem to have totaly abandoned your "social contract"?
No, if you don't use their services, then there isn't a contract. But the chances you will eventually use them is extremely high, almost 100%. The chances that a person wants to live isolated on a property the entirety of their adult lives is pretty low, eventually the social contract is going to be a factor.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
No, if you don't use their services, then there isn't a contract. But the chances you will eventually use them is extremely high, almost 100%. The chances that a person wants to live isolated on a property the entirety of their adult lives is pretty low, eventually the social contract is going to be a factor.
If they forcefully prevent other services from developing by disallowing them, (they do this on a regular basis) your use of their so called "service" isn't really a contract created by free will is it?

The social contract is a fallacy, as it doesn't rest on the consent of the persons enveloped by it. For a contract to be valid, it must have an offer that is accepted without duress or implied force for failing to "accept" the terms.

The social contract relies wholly on rationalization that some people can give another individual persons consent for them, which is absurd.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
If they forcefully prevent other services from developing by disallowing them, (they do this on a regular basis) your use of their so called "service" isn't really a contract created by free will is it?

The social contract is a fallacy, as it doesn't rest on the consent of the persons enveloped by it. For a contract to be valid, it must have an offer that is accepted without duress or implied force for failing to "accept" the terms.

The social contract relies wholly on rationalization that some people can give another individual persons consent for them, which is absurd.
I know they prevent other providers of services, but they shouldn't. At the same time, they have been an institution longer, and therefore own more resources making it impossible to not enter the contract. This is tricky, because you can't say they don't have a right to own those resources just because they beat you to them, because it would be the same as myself saying another individual doesn't have the right to their property just because they beat me to it. This raises the question, what is ownership and what are the criteria for someone claiming ownership of property?
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
No, if you don't use their services, then there isn't a contract. But the chances you will eventually use them is extremely high, almost 100%. The chances that a person wants to live isolated on a property the entirety of their adult lives is pretty low, eventually the social contract is going to be a factor.
So the alternative is to beconfined to an area, never leave that area AND still pay taxes on that area in order to prevent forcible expulsion? Even tho you haven't used any "services", you are still forced to submit to the demands. Frankly, anyone expousing the idea of "social contracts" is just trying to legitimize forcing their will upon others. Wolves mascarading as sheep. Mostly a bunch of losers (and politions who pander to them) who think they have some God-given right to take what they will from others. They should be hung. Several times.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
So the alternative is to beconfined to an area, never leave that area AND still pay taxes on that area in order to prevent forcible expulsion? Even tho you haven't used any "services", you are still forced to submit to the demands. Frankly, anyone expousing the idea of "social contracts" is just trying to legitimize forcing their will upon others. Wolves mascarading as sheep. Mostly a bunch of losers (and politions who pander to them) who think they have some God-given right to take what they will from others. They should be hung. Several times.
No, I said if you don't use the services in your area, then you SHOULDN'T be required to pay property taxes. Also, the premise of my argument was the fact that if you are independent of government service and property, then you are exempt from government involvement. I'm not trying to argue the current status quo is correct, stop trying to make that part of my argument.
 

benbud89

Well-Known Member
I am starting this thread to encourage a conversation about the meaning of consent.

Below is an excerpt from an editorial by Will Tippens. The full editorial is available at Strike the Root published 4/20.

Have at it.

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What does it mean to "consent" to something? Thanks to the increasing, if often misplaced concern over sexual assault and rape, this important question is being posed now more than ever. One recent article went viral by aptly comparing sexual consent to offering someone a "cup of tea." According to this analogy, consent is as simple as offering someone a cup of tea; if they accept, they will drink the tea. If they decline or lose capacity to consent (lose consciousness), the tea party host cannot pour it down their throat. A simple yet effective analogy.

However, the topic of consent is an extremely important legal concept, as it is not only the key element in differenting between sex and rape, but the difference between all aggression and voluntary agreements. Without the concept of 'consent,' we cannot determine if someone is going on a date or being kidnapped, loaning $20 to a friend or having it stolen, or fighting in a boxing match or being assaulted by Mike Tyson.

But the elephant in the room that no one seems to mention is that this simple yet effective definition of consent raises a far more deeply reaching question: Is our relationship with government consensual?

Hello. I did not read the thread, because I know it will be full of shit. But start looking at Manufacture of Consent. A term created by Walter Lippmann and adopted by the great thinker, Noahm Chomsky. They are brilliant. Everything is distorted in modern democracies.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
No, I said if you don't use the services in your area, then you SHOULDN'T be required to pay property taxes. Also, the premise of my argument was the fact that if you are independent of government service and property, then you are exempt from government involvement. I'm not trying to argue the current status quo is correct, stop trying to make that part of my argument.
Well you ARE be required to pay property taxes. if you are independent of government service and property, then you are NOT exempt from government involvement. Your argument is what "justified" the status quo.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
Well you ARE be required to pay property taxes. if you are independent of government service and property, then you are NOT exempt from government involvement. Your argument is what "justified" the status quo.
Are you lacking reading comprehension? Yes, we are required even if we are governmentally independent but we SHOULDN'T be is what I have been saying.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I know they prevent other providers of services, but they shouldn't. At the same time, they have been an institution longer, and therefore own more resources making it impossible to not enter the contract. This is tricky, because you can't say they don't have a right to own those resources just because they beat you to them, because it would be the same as myself saying another individual doesn't have the right to their property just because they beat me to it. This raises the question, what is ownership and what are the criteria for someone claiming ownership of property?
Good question at the end of your post. An understanding of what property is, becomes paramount to a discussion.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Hello. I did not read the thread, because I know it will be full of shit. But start looking at Manufacture of Consent. A term created by Walter Lippmann and adopted by the great thinker, Noahm Chomsky. They are brilliant. Everything is distorted in modern democracies.
Hello.

I'll check it out, thanks.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Are you lacking reading comprehension? Yes, we are required even if we are governmentally independent but we SHOULDN'T be is what I have been saying.
No, first you blathered about a "social contract", then you tried to weasel out of it.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
No, first you blathered about a "social contract", then you tried to weasel out of it.
Yes, because everyone uses public services. No one is trying to weasel out of anything, I stand by my ideas. I notice though, all you do is complain and try to shoot down others ideas. What are some of your solutions, or are your solutions just as dumb and lacking of intelligence as you are? Don't fear criticism. Let's hear your ideas.
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Yes, because everyone uses public services. No one is trying to weasel out of anything, I stand by my ideas. I notice though, all you do is complain and try to shoot down others ideas. What are some of your solutions, or are your solutions just as dumb and lacking of intelligence as you are? Don't fear criticism. Let's hear your ideas.
Solution? To what problem? Other's ideas? Demanding we subjegate ourselves before the state isn't an "idea". You want to enslave the populace. My solution would be the guillitine for those who think as you,.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
Solution? To what problem? Other's ideas? Demanding we subjegate ourselves before the state isn't an "idea". You want to enslave the populace. My solution would be the guillitine for those who think as you,.
So your solution is to kill people whose ideas you don't like, well what if I kill you first? I guess I win then.
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
I like this game. When can we all play? Been a few hundred years since we rattled our own cage.
I dunno, I played the game for a little while when I visited a few valleys in Afghanistan. It's very tiring, but I guess its whenever red takes control of the country.
 
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