New closet setup, running an under current system , looking for feedback and suggestions

[ttystikk]

So from what I've been reading it sounds like flooming and waterfalls are used a lot for aeration in hydro. What size of line do you have the water dropping into the bucket with? I'm trying to get an idea on how much water I should have dropping in and to see if I possibly need a larger pump? Also, how does this type of aeration work in a sealed co2 enriched room? I'm know your roots don't use co2, they need o2 so in that type of room would this be a problem? With air stones and an air pump I would run the pump in a separate room that isn't co2 enriched and plumb the airlines in to the buckets in the enriched room.

I use half inch elbow fittings in the tub lids, do they don't fall thru. Half inch flexible tubing from there to a one inch connector with 'funnypipe' tee. So the whole manifold is made from the same 1" tubing the rest of my RDWC system is, for fewer parts.


When I said I simplified the Fuck out of everything, this is a prime example; No air pump, No stones, No stupid lines to trip over, pop out and whatnot. A few bux worth of sprinkler parts and the whole air system is a thing of the past.

 

[brewster81]

I use half inch elbow fittings in the tub lids, do they don't fall thru. Half inch flexible tubing from there to a one inch connector with 'funnypipe' tee. So the whole manifold is made from the same 1" tubing the rest of my RDWC system is, for fewer parts.
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When I said I simplified the Fuck out of everything, this is a prime example; No air pump, No stones, No stupid lines to trip over, pop out and whatnot. A few bux worth of sprinkler parts and the whole air system is a thing of the past.

What size is your pump?

 

[brewster81]

I'm pretty much sold on the no air pump/stones setup, my only concern being (1) the co2 in the room and lack of fresh o2 being pumped to the roots via air pump and (2) pump size to make sure I've got enough flow dropping into each bucket to create adequate agitation.

 

[ttystikk]

The waterfall does the oxygenation. Size the pump as follows; 400gph minimum, or 50gph per tubsite. CO² isn't an issue, the water isn't supposed to be open to the air anyway, which reduces absorption.

 

[brewster81]

The waterfall does the oxygenation. Size the pump as follows; 400gph minimum, or 50gph per tubsite. CO² isn't an issue, the water isn't supposed to be open to the air anyway, which reduces absorption.

I understand the water shouldn't be open to the air, but they can't be air tight right? Otherwise eventually you would run out of o2 in your buckets. Sorry to keep driving at the same point, but I know that co2 is heavier than air and my thoughts or concerns are that with in a room that is constantly at 1500ppm co2, and co2 being heavier than air would your water fall effect not start to also add that co2 concentration to the buckets like it does the o2? I've read on another thread that a Gardner was saying in a sealed co2 room you have to run your air pump in a separate room so it doesn't pump that co2 in the grow room air to your root zones. Wouldn't this be a concern here as well?

 

[justugh]

your air in the water .........just make sure the pump is outside of the Co2 zone

the air bubble tho the water will keep the Co2 from settling on/in it .............with a strong enough air pump u will be making a slight breeze under the plants that go tho the grow media and then up tho the plant

if u are really worried about it here i found this for myself
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007BVQ654/


that nipple is for a airline ...........so u have air stones in the buckets bubbling and then when the pump pulls the water out to dump into the mixing cell it is getting hit with a extra supply of oxygen then it gets even more from the waterfall effect

 

[brewster81]

One thing in not considering here I guess is the fact that during photosynthesis the plants will be producing o2. I assume more co2 in = more o2 out? The co2 system would add co2 to the room to accommodate this and maintain 1500ppm. So in theory you should never run out of o2 in your room as long as your plants are healthy. The question is that whether 1500ppm co2 is harmful to the roots?

 

[brewster81]

your air in the water .........just make sure the pump is outside of the Co2 zone

the air bubble tho the water will keep the Co2 from settling on/in it .............with a strong enough air pump u will be making a slight breeze under the plants that go tho the grow media and then up tho the plant

if u are really worried about it here i found this for myself
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007BVQ654/


that nipple is for a airline ...........so u have air stones in the buckets bubbling and then when the pump pulls the water out to dump into the mixing cell it is getting hit with a extra supply of oxygen then it gets even more from the waterfall effect

Thanks man! However I do understand how the system would work when using an air pump and air stones, my question is how does it effect the plants when you go without anair pump and use waterfalls or flooms to aerate? You aren't adding o2 to the room from an air pump. I know that the waterfall or floom I equal to or better than air stones, just curious about the co2 being used with that type of system?

 

[brewster81]

Like TTYSTIK said, it would be very nice to be able to run your system with one water pump, lights and fans. Cut down big time on cost and should produce as good or better, depending on the effect of co2 that I'm wondering about.

 

[justugh]

Thanks man! However I do understand how the system would work when using an air pump and air stones, my question is how does it effect the plants when you go without anair pump and use waterfalls or flooms to aerate? You aren't adding o2 to the room from an air pump. I know that the waterfall or floom I equal to or better than air stones, just curious about the co2 being used with that type of system?

the waterfall method is shit when u think about the power of the air pump and the new micropore stones....nano bubble tech.......u can do it right u are pumping 1 gallon air under the root zone per min

the info i have been given u is for the cheaper of 2 methods i know of ............if u have the funding i can show u the top method

that is all nano bubbles nothing but air the bubbles are so small the pressure of the water effectly traps them untill they combine to form bigger bubbles and raise to the top .................the best thing on earth to compare too is the ocean's beach surf zone it does the same thing do to the force of the impact and the sand

they make a few different models of this but i have not found one that i would go after as of yet.......but if u are on more funding and more space then me.......for a hydro system Nano bubbles is the best choice hands down ...........with the amount of oxygen they are adding it gives u a little flux on the temps in the water so if it is little water then should be this will off set that negitive effect


edit...........u should not have your mixing or your chilling unit inside the Co2 zone it defeats the sealed zone idea

the mixing cell where the waterfall would be .....should be outside the zone so u can add water to lvl system check the ph ...add feed......other wise u will be opening the sealed zone several times aday .........and for u to work in there those ppm should be in the 900 range most 1500ppm and u do not mix

 

[justugh]

u can run all your items like that off one but it will cost u a good amount of money

u are not talking hobby gear anymore u are going into Com apps and that stuff is not cheap ............they sell a system now that will do what u want with just one pump one airpump
Undercurrent system dwc ................when u get passed 8 plants they have a 2nd air pump and a larger water pump but it does everything u are asking for just this is ment for shops and ppl growing for a living the cost of them for a hobby or just personal supply is to great

 

[brewster81]

u can run all your items like that off one but it will cost u a good amount of money

u are not talking hobby gear anymore u are going into Com apps and that stuff is not cheap ............they sell a system now that will do what u want with just one pump one airpump
Undercurrent system dwc ................when u get passed 8 plants they have a 2nd air pump and a larger water pump but it does everything u are asking for just this is ment for shops and ppl growing for a living the cost of them for a hobby or just personal supply is to great

Any idea on the water and air pump sizes on the 8 plant system you are referring too? I have most of the equipment I will need already, including a good sized air pump. However good air stones are hard to find, especially north of the US border for some reason lol. At this point it is a hobby for me, and I like to build stuff. The costs are covered to an extent but I'm not willing to pay $2-3k+ for a system that I could build for way less..

 

[brewster81]

the waterfall method is shit when u think about the power of the air pump and the new micropore stones....nano bubble tech.......u can do it right u are pumping 1 gallon air under the root zone per min

the info i have been given u is for the cheaper of 2 methods i know of ............if u have the funding i can show u the top method

that is all nano bubbles nothing but air the bubbles are so small the pressure of the water effectly traps them untill they combine to form bigger bubbles and raise to the top .................the best thing on earth to compare too is the ocean's beach surf zone it does the same thing do to the force of the impact and the sand

they make a few different models of this but i have not found one that i would go after as of yet.......but if u are on more funding and more space then me.......for a hydro system Nano bubbles is the best choice hands down ...........with the amount of oxygen they are adding it gives u a little flux on the temps in the water so if it is little water then should be this will off set that negitive effect


edit...........u should not have your mixing or your chilling unit inside the Co2 zone it defeats the sealed zone idea

the mixing cell where the waterfall would be .....should be outside the zone so u can add water to lvl system check the ph ...add feed......other wise u will be opening the sealed zone several times aday .........and for u to work in there those ppm should be in the 900 range most 1500ppm and u do not mix

Wow! Now that is some oxygenated water. Where does one find the equipment to produce those nano bubbles? As for the the mixing and chiller, they will be in a separate room but like TTYSTIK, I was thinking about having a waterfall in each growing bucket for the aeration. Lots of guys are growing without airpumps using this. I just wondered whether the lack of oxygen being pumped in from an outside room from an air pump would be a problem. I've since read that at 1500ppm there is no danger of oxygen dep to the roots because of the natural level of o2 in our atmosphere. I've read many arguments that air pumps are a major source of heat as they hear the air they pump into your room by up to 30f+ over ambient and that airstones are magnets for disease. I do like this nano bubble idea though...

 

[justugh]

Any idea on the water and air pump sizes on the 8 plant system you are referring too? I have most of the equipment I will need already, including a good sized air pump. However good air stones are hard to find, especially north of the US border for some reason lol. At this point it is a hobby for me, and I like to build stuff. The costs are covered to an extent but I'm not willing to pay $2-3k+ for a system that I could build for way less..

here is the undercurrent site
http://cch2o.com/

they make good stuff so they should list the rating of the airpump ............u can look at the designs they offer

i personally like these ppl the best
http://alienhydroponicsystems.co.uk/deep-water-current/index.html

i like that upper current flow it would allow the micrbos and fungis travel in the system better the ph readings and the feed should all be a more stable lvl other wise u need a big under pipe to get the same effect


if not i am a big lover of overkill ...............
http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-AAPA70L-60-Watt-Commercial-Outlets/dp/B002JPM91W

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Water-Innovations-Micro-Pore-Diffuser/dp/B004OYD7I0
i own this myself it will fit inside the 5 gallon buckets since it is large it will stay right in the center of the bucket the whole time .........i love this stone it should last 5 years at least more if u clean it out

 

[justugh]

Wow! Now that is some oxygenated water. Where does one find the equipment to produce those nano bubbles? As for the the mixing and chiller, they will be in a separate room but like TTYSTIK, I was thinking about having a waterfall in each growing bucket for the aeration. Lots of guys are growing without airpumps using this. I just wondered whether the lack of oxygen being pumped in from an outside room from an air pump would be a problem. I've since read that at 1500ppm there is no danger of oxygen dep to the roots because of the natural level of o2 in our atmosphere. I've read many arguments that air pumps are a major source of heat as they hear the air they pump into your room by up to 30f+ over ambient and that airstones are magnets for disease. I do like this nano bubble idea though...

that one i showed u .............look in the about info it will tell u a contact info and what model it is
......

............

i know of these guys too
http://www.oxydoser.com/OxyDoser-Bubble-Generators/OxyDoser-PUREair.html

they are new with a different design ...........that just need a high power waterpump or a weaker one your choice ........i mean i just sawl these guys today so i do not know anything do your checking before u buy like always

 

[ttystikk]

@justugh 'waterfalls are shit'

Funny, Mother Nature's been using them to great effect for a few billion years now. The fish in the streams aren't dead, and the river itself is well purified by the action of falling water.

Air pumps and stones generally don't agitate the water column in the tub very well, nor do they break surface tension effectively. This is why waterfalls work as well our better than any of these insanely complicated and expensive systems.

Put even more simply, adequate, complete, saturated levels of oxygenation are EASY to attain, not difficult.

I'm going to say this one more time, just so the fucking noobs get it; EVERYTHING I ADVOCATE COMES FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. If it didn't work, I wouldn't be pushing it!

What financial incentive do I have for saying air pumps are unnecessary? None! What's the vested interest of all these other sources who want to sell you an air pump based aeration system? Duh!

 

[brewster81]

@justugh 'waterfalls are shit'

Funny, Mother Nature's been using them to great effect for a few billion years now. The fish in the streams aren't dead, and the river itself is well purified by the action of falling water.

Air pumps and stones generally don't agitate the water column in the tub very well, nor do they break surface tension effectively. This is why waterfalls work as well our better than any of these insanely complicated and expensive systems.

Put even more simply, adequate, complete, saturated levels of oxygenation are EASY to attain, not difficult.

I'm going to say this one more time, just so the fucking noobs get it; EVERYTHING I ADVOCATE COMES FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. If it didn't work, I wouldn't be pushing it!

What financial incentive do I have for saying air pumps are unnecessary? None! What's the vested interest of all these other sources who want to sell you an air pump based aeration system? Duh!

I apologize for making you repeat thighs and I will be the first to admit I'm a definite noob to this stuff. I have however read your thread and seen some I your comments, questions and suggestions elsewhere in riu. I appreciate what you're telling me and I have no doubt that what you are telling me worked for you. I'm sick of airstones and air pumps, if I can do as good or better without I will. My res temps aren't going to be a problem as I already have a nice new chiller and. All I really need to purchase at this point is a couple fixtures, possibly a bigger pump I currently have three Supreme 250gph pumps in my possession but it would be nice to cut it down to one bigger one. And I still need the containers and plumbing... All of which I plan on purchasing in the next 3-4 days, I just want to make the best most informed purchases I can. Again thank you to everyones input so far. I'm learning tons.

 

[justugh]

@justugh 'waterfalls are shit'

Funny, Mother Nature's been using them to great effect for a few billion years now. The fish in the streams aren't dead, and the river itself is well purified by the action of falling water.

Air pumps and stones generally don't agitate the water column in the tub very well, nor do they break surface tension effectively. This is why waterfalls work as well our better than any of these insanely complicated and expensive systems.

Put even more simply, adequate, complete, saturated levels of oxygenation are EASY to attain, not difficult.

I'm going to say this one more time, just so the fucking noobs get it; EVERYTHING I ADVOCATE COMES FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. If it didn't work, I wouldn't be pushing it!

What financial incentive do I have for saying air pumps are unnecessary? None! What's the vested interest of all these other sources who want to sell you an air pump based aeration system? Duh!

ok lets look at waterfalls.............the only thing they need to oxygenate is the water for fishs and yes they do a damn good job of it but u are talking plants that are growing and u are trying to put on as much weight as possible ..........waterfall is shit for build a plant to it max power .......u would need to increase the distances it falls and be running the water at a massive speed more then 250 gallons a hour

honestly do what u want i am just giving advice to build u a massive plant .............the more u ppl make the less i have to supply to my ppl this month alone i did a pound and half .............. next month i have to double it ........at that point i am not going any bigger with out a com site to tie in for power


i am passing off the info i gathered with running exps and reading for the last year and half ...........what u are talking about will grow a plant but i know mine will grow better ...........why grow something like that when u can do better

hell if the guy really wanted too i could teach him how to make a fully automatic system only thing needs to be done is flush the water add the bottles of feed so the system can drawl off and clip his plants

 

[ttystikk]

The average is going from one to two # per stem right now- and not even one little bit of it can be attributed to 'improved aeration'. It's not hard to achieve 100% oxygen saturation in water.

And fish need more dissolved oxygen than plants, by far. This from many, many fish keepers as well as literature.

Please do more research before saying things so obviously off base and thereby confusing people.

 

[brewster81]

The average is going from one to two # per stem right now- and not even one little bit of it can be attributed to 'improved aeration'. It's not hard to achieve 100% oxygen saturation in water.

And fish need more dissolved oxygen than plants, by far. This from many, many fish keepers as well as literature.

Please do more research before saying things so obviously off base and thereby confusing people.

Hey I was reading your thread on thcfarmer about your air-stone less system. You say you used a copper 6 way pex manifold? I always understood any copper plumbing is bad as it will leech toxins into your nutrient solution? Is this true or can I use brass or copper parts in my plumbing? They seem much easier to find...