Thanks Alishabree, that's a cool press.

Do you dry your bud completely before pressing? Are you getting resin or a water based solution from the plant?

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__________________
"I will have my money for my fine and a joint in the other hand."

- Jean Chretien, Prime Minister of Canada, on marijuana decriminalization

ahh I forgot to heat the weed at 325 for 5 mins to do THCA -> THC . . . I'm doing a vodka tincture with sugar-leaf trim. but I'm keeping the jar in a cool dark place for 10 days, shaking daily.

does skipping this step basically kill my chances of a good tincture that'll get me high?

"ahh I forgot to heat the weed at 325 for 5 mins to do THCA -> THC . . does skipping this step basically kill my chances of a good tincture that'll get me high? "

There seems to be two schools of thought on that issue. From your description you seem to be doing a traditional Warm Extraction, which doesn't call for pre-baked buds. And it works. On the other side Dr Jay says:

"In whole-plant cannabis, THC content is expressed as THCA (tetrahydrocannabolic acid) prior to decarboxylation into THC, which takes place when cannabis is heated during cooking, and smoked or vaporized ingestion. THCA is a mild analgesic and anti-inflammatory but does not have good affinity with our CB1 receptors, so in order to make a THC-rich tincture that has many of the same therapeutic effects as smoked ingestion (including rapid absorption, quick relief and ease of self-titration), we must convert the THCA in the plant matter into THC prior to extracting it through an alcohol soak. (from Vancouver Island Compassion Society http://thevics.com/cannamist.htm)

THC vaporizes at about 380°F. We want to heat the cannabis to convert THCA to THC, but keep the temperature under 380°F. That is why 325°F is used. Between four and five minutes your oven (and house) will start to smell very strong. This is the time to remove the cannabis from the oven.

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Notice also that there is considerable misinformation regarding heating the cannabis. It is true that you don't have to heat it to extract both THC and THCA, but the amount of THC in whole plant preparations is relatively small compared to after decarboxylation of the THCA. So if you want to maximize the strength of your tincture you must heat the cannabis prior to extraction."

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I don't know what, if any, effect the extraction process has on turning the THCA psycoactive.

Think about it this way - if you took some brownie batter that hardens at room temperature ... and mix in an ounce of primo ground bud ... then let the brownie/ground bud mixture dry at room temperature ... and ate a brownie ... would you expect to get high? I think the effect would be very small, it's making canna butter or oil and heating for hours that make the bud psycoactive.

I'm concerned that 325 F will boil off some resin so I heat my bud at a lower temperature for longer. I've got a Volcano and I'm low on bud now so I'm clipping and vaporizing the same day. I bought a little toaster oven and bake my freshly clipped bud at 190 F for 1 to 3 hours and get a decent high. I'm experimenting with different cooking times, haven't found that 3 hours is any better than 1, but I'll keep experimenting.

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If you're tincture is not potent and you want to salvage the cannaboids for another try ... heat the tincture to around 80-90 C to boil off the alcohol. The Honey Oil will drop to the bottom of whatever water is left (if you're using everclear you may want to add some water before heating). Cool in fridge for an hour, pour off the water, scrape up the honey oil, heat it to turn psycoactive, make tincture.

The nice thing about this extra step is that you leave all the terpins and chlorophile in the water left over from the first extraction. I've done this once when the tincture wasn't potent and got some smokeable honey oil.

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__________________
"I will have my money for my fine and a joint in the other hand."

- Jean Chretien, Prime Minister of Canada, on marijuana decriminalization

I like doing 250 for 10-15 min.... prevent any accidental vap.

__________________
Get hurt, I'll heal you. Nothing in my posts are real. Every picture I post is fake.

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Hi Hobbes,

Great thread I will be trying this shortly using the heat method ( no patience of course)

My question is this,

When I make thc pills using coconut butter, I use a crock pot with the coconut butter and use trim (all the trim I use has glands no straight fan leaves) what i notice as far as effect is it works great but has a very heavy munchie inducing sedative effect. Very strong yes, but everytime I take them I eat until I am almost sick, and then I am wiped out. So I am wondering what your thoughts are on the water cure with the trim before I do the heat method with everclear. I am wondering if this will get rid of some of the heavy stuff from the dope? Also do you know if after I make the tincture if I can then put a droplet of tincture in my capsule so i don't have to drink it or will this slow down delivery as it will have to be digested versus being absorbed through the blood veins under the tounge.... hope i didn't ramble but i am not to confident about that...

Thanks again this is great info!

__________________
"Police said they seized 91 mature marijuana trees at the first home, 48 mature marijuana trees at the second home and 112 mature marijuana trees at the third residence on the block. The total street value of these drugs is $2 million." nbc6 south florida

Here's a good thread also on "Green Dragon", quite a few people sharing their experience. I read the whole thing a while ago, good reading for sure. What I do is like this but I cook it down into something I can smoke. It still has to be decarbed in the oven if it has to much veg matter in it. I tried doing it with out the baking and it can be done but the percent of veg matter has a lot to do with it coming out any good. It doesn't have to do with the thca=thc conversion but rather getting rid of things like the chlorophyll and what else might vaporize out of it when it is baked. I like to use what would be low grade hash when I am running off a batch doing ice water ectraction. Doesn't need baking. And can be cooked down to an oil or keep going to get something easier to use.
http://boards.cannabis.com/concentra...-combined.html

Attached Images

	Hash 8-24-08 first photo's 001.jpg (40.8 KB, 20 views)
	Hash 8-24-08 first photo's 003.jpg (46.8 KB, 23 views)

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Go ahead and vote: http://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/...ot-smoked.html

hey patjack!

"When I make thc pills using coconut butter, I use a crock pot with the coconut butter and use trim (all the trim I use has glands no straight fan leaves) what i notice as far as effect is it works great but has a very heavy munchie inducing sedative effect. Very strong yes, but everytime I take them I eat until I am almost sick, and then I am wiped out."

Water curing will get rid of most of the terpins and chloriphile, it will make things easier on the stomach if that's what's making you sick.

"So I am wondering what your thoughts are on the water cure with the trim before I do the heat method with everclear. I am wondering if this will get rid of some of the heavy stuff from the dope?"

Yes I believe it will get rid of some of the fuzziness and slightly reduce the sedative effect.

There's a great thread on water curing in the Harvest and Curing section, some guys were talking about ... CBD or CBN perhaps ... being water soluble and many of us from the thread noticed a clearer, more up high with water cured bud.

Another thing to consider is the strain you're using - we could water cure White Rhino until the Great Lakes dry up and it'll still sit us on our ass. If you're strain is known for giving you the munchies and knocking you out, change strains if you want a different effect.

GreenX How to's... How to Water Cure (w/pics)

Comparing - Air and Water - Cure (w/pics)

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"Also do you know if after I make the tincture if I can then put a droplet of tincture in my capsule so i don't have to drink it"

Yes, this would be fine if the capsule doesn't disolve. It'd be a race.

"or will this slow down delivery as it will have to be digested versus being absorbed through the blood veins under the tounge"

Yes, if you swallow the tincture without holding it under your tongue for sublingual absorption you will not get high as quickly, but you will get just as high. Or stoned. Just the time difference for absorbing the cannaboids.

http://www.coe.uh.edu/archive/scienc...ciencegr1.html

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__________________
"I will have my money for my fine and a joint in the other hand."

- Jean Chretien, Prime Minister of Canada, on marijuana decriminalization

Thanks for the info and the link Hash Lover.

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__________________
"I will have my money for my fine and a joint in the other hand."

- Jean Chretien, Prime Minister of Canada, on marijuana decriminalization

Thanks to forum member Scotts A Buzzen esquire for allowing me to steal his intelectual property. +rep

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Tincture

Many patients who utilize and benefit from medical cannabis do not wish to smoke due to the perceived health hazards of smoking or for other personal reasons. These patients are in something of a bind. Smoking cannabis delivers the active cannabinoids within seconds. Medicine is absorbed in the lungs and goes directly to the brain and general circulation. The same effect can be achieved with a vaporizer, which is safer than smoking burning vegetable matter. Since the effects of inhaled cannabis are so quick, it is easy for patients to titrate their dose by simply waiting a minute or two in between puffs.

Oral cannabis, such as Black Out Bud Butter, is absorbed in a very different fashion from smoking or inhalation. The GI tract gradually absorbs Cannabinoids over the course of one to two hours. Medicine is processed first by the liver, which converts some cannabinoids such as delta nine to delta 11version of THC. Orally delivered cannabis requires four to ten times the amount of the smoked version in order to achieve the same effect. Orally delivered cannabis can present a problem in achieving the required or desired dose level in any consistent fashion.

Tincture is designed to address the problems of rapid medicine delivery and consistent dosing. Most tinctures are made to be used under the tongue or sublingually. English pharmaceutical companies are presently working on a cannabis extract "spray" that can be used under the tongue in a similar fashion. These sprays are not expected to be approved for use in the United States for years and will be very expensive. Absorption by the arterial blood supply under the tongue is completed in seconds. One trick is to not swallow the dose as, if swallowed, absorption will be in the GI tract. Many patients, though, add their tincture to a cup of tea or cranberry juice for easy delivery. When tincture is used in a beverage, absorption will be slower than if absorbed under the tongue. While tincture absorbed in an empty stomach is accomplished in minutes, conversion in the liver remains, as does the difficulty in titrating dose. Usually, a tincture dose is delivered by means of a medicine dropper or a teaspoon. A rule of thumb on dose is that patients receive benefit from 3-4 drops to a couple of full droppers depending upon the potency of the tincture and the patient’s own unique requirements among other factors.

The methods listed below will detail two major methods of preparing tincture. While the methods are optimized for purity and potency, ultimately these will largely be determined by the purity and potency of the cannabis from which the tincture is made. Another item of note in regard to starting material for tincture is the patient or caregiver selection of strain. A rough rule of thumb is to select Indica dominant strains for cramping and muscle spasticity and Sativa dominant strains for pain relief. The reality, though, is often that the strain is unknown or not well characterized. Trial and error is usually required to acquire the appropriate strain and the proper dose level.

General Rules:

Tincture is an extraction of active cannabinoids from plant material. Cannabis contains many chemicals that can either upset the stomach or taste nasty. One of the goals of extraction is to secure the cannabinoids while leaving out as many of the terpenes and chlorophylls as possible. Both heat and light adversely effect cannabinoids and should be avoided or minimized. Tincture should be stored in airtight dark glass containers kept at room temperature or below. Avoid plastic containers. The ethanol in the tincture may solubilize some of the free vinyls in the plastic.

Cold Method with Ethanol

Making tincture cold preserves the integrity of cannabinoids. To be potent, this method requires starting material high in cannabinoid content such as flowers or kief made from trim and leaf. The material must be mold free and dry. Drying can be accomplished in the freezer (-4-10 degrees Celsius) or better yet by placing in a liquid proof bag into a dry ice/ethanol ice bath (-70 degrees Celsius). Once water has been removed then the surface area of the starting material requires expansion. This can be accomplished a number of ways but two ways stand out:

Using flowers (bud)- Place dried buds in a coffee grinder and pulse until thoroughly ground but not powdered.

Making kief- Rub dry trim and leaves over a silk screen. Collect the powder the comes through the screen. It should be a very pale green. "Kiefing" is an age old way of extracting trichomes from plant material.

Whether kief or ground bud is used both should kept ice cold for this preparation. Similarly, the ethanol to be used should also be ice cold throughout the process.

Selection of alcohol- ethanol or ethyl alcohol is the form of alcohol that can be used by humans. The proof listed on commercial alcohol refers to the percentage of ethanol that the beverage contains. The proof is twice the percentage, so 80 "proof" means that the mixture contains 40% ethanol. The higher the alcohol content used, the better the extraction will work. Ideally, 200 proof ethanol would be best except that ethanol cannot be distilled to this proof so benzene is used to remove the last vestiges of water. This makes "pure" ethanol poisonous.

Many folks use "Everclear" which stands at 190 proof or 95% ethanol. Everclear has no taste. Apparently, Everclear is not available in all States. A close second choice is 151 proof rum. This is a light amber liquid that is 75% ethanol that has a sweet taste. One of our caregiver writers will use nothing but Korbel brandy because she likes the taste. Others use iced Russian vodka. These "normal" distilled spirits are 40% to 50% ethanol. Some patients find that the higher proofs ethanols like Everclear and 151 rum burn too much under the tongue. If burning is a concern consider a high quality 90-100 proof Vodka.

Cold Extraction and purification- Use at least one ounce of starting material to each pint of ethanol. Place cold powdered kief or ground cannabis flowers together with ethanol in a glass quart-mixing jar. Close the jar tightly and vigorously shake for five minutes then return to the freezer. Continue to agitate the mixture every few hours with refreezing. Continue for a period of two to three days.

Pour the cold mixture through a double thickness of sterile cheesecloth. Save the cheesecloth "ball" for topical uses or use the material to make bud butter once dried. The liquid collected through the cheesecloth should then be filtered twice through a paper coffee filter. Use gloves throughout the process, as it is necessary to squeeze the cheesecloth and coffee filters to facilitate the extraction. Without gloves some of the material will be absorbed on the skin.

If Everclear is used the tincture will be pale green to golden. If 151 rum is used an amber tincture results. Dark green tinctures mean that excess plant material is present. This does not mean that the tincture will not be potent, just taste nasty. When Everclear is used, various flavor extracts may be added (vanilla, raspberry, etc.). Be careful to use only a few drop of flavor extract.

Traditional or Warm Method

The old fashioned (and effective) way to make tincture from trim, leaf or "shake" is to grind the plant material to expose surface area. A fine grind is not needed and will just make the tincture cloudy. A rough chop will do. Most folks can’t afford to use kief or bud for tincture but may have leaf handy. If so, this is the way to go. Use ethanol as described above in the same proportions. The key difference is that in this preparation the materials are kept warm (not hot). Light must be avoided.

Place the ethanol and chopped cannabis in a large glass Mason jar. Shake at least once a day. Place the jar in a brown paper bag or otherwise shield the jar from light. Leave in a warm spot (near a window) for 30-60 days. The mixture will turn a very dark green. Strain as previously described through cheesecloth. Save the "shake ball" for topical applications.

While this method produces a nasty tasting tincture, it is powerful. It may upset some fragile stomachs. It is recommended that Warm Tincture be used orally in cranberry juice or coffee with sugar. Keep the filtered tincture in light blocking glass jars or bottles in a cool dry place (refrigerator or freezer is fine). The shake ball should also be kept in the freezer. For topical applications, just take out the cold shake ball and apply a few drops of fresh tincture to the cloth then hold it on the affected area for a few minutes with gentle rubbing.

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__________________
"I will have my money for my fine and a joint in the other hand."

- Jean Chretien, Prime Minister of Canada, on marijuana decriminalization

Just want to add my .02

I've done a bit of experimenting with oven temps prior to using the stove method. I've tried 325 for 5 minutes, 200 for 20, 285 for 30, and 245 for an hour. I got these numbers from master wu's thread on another board. In my unscientific opinion, I thought 285F for 30 gave me the best results.

For people who have trouble tracking down high % alcohol, you might consider citrus extracts. Most grocery stores carry them in the spice section. Lemon extract is 84% and I believe orange extract is about 79%. I've used the lemon, and it mixes very well with tea.

Great thread Hobbes, let's keep the ideas coming.