Great thread on LST. (not my own)

[ataxia]

Here's a post i've saved as a favorite ever since i started growing. I found this on gardenscure.com .... originally posted by Mymusicveins. I think it's a good read for any lst'er


This isn’t an easy topic to cover all of. As is with everyone, I am still learning and perfecting my techniques.

Now, this is a thread on LST, and I emphasize the low stress part, because although a little stress can be good (aka low), a lot of stress can and will be BAD. I don’t support topping, the FIM technique, sticking nails through the stems or any such SIN. Ill get more into this on the very next reply.

It's a process of trial and error (yes, we are all human here) and although some may prefer to use different materials and slightly different methods, done correctly, it’s all yields the same results.

Imo, with indoor growing, all I’m attempting to do is replicate Mother Nature. This is no easy task, but hey, we got to start somewhere.

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Ok, so there is this bear right? A BIG bear. No Winnie the Pooh crap, but like Im a big bear that weighs a lot bear. A grizzly if that so suits you. Now, this bear does what he wants to, because lets face it, that’s what bears do (what, are you going to tell him not to?) So this bear is walking through the woods and decides that its time to itch his back. He looks around for a tree, but :: doest see one. Ok, well then he'll just have to get on his back and wiggle around (what, dogs do it) ::wiggle wiggle here:: ::wiggle wiggle there:: and he’s on his way. What Fred didn’t notice (what, I cant name the bear? you have a problem with the name Fred?) is that in his gluttonous actions he managed to bump into miss Mary Jane. As she got bumped, she got tangled in some such manner that she’s bending over and got caught in that position.

So then, there we have it; Mother Nature threw this plant a curve (or a big Fred, ::shrugs:: ). That’s fine, she will adapt, and that’s where this thread begins.

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Well, as it turns out, this new position isn’t so bad. In this position, she is slightly stressed and is forced to strengthen herself to support her weight. Well, that’s nice, because with a thicker crown and branches, she can support her weight better, and can uptake more nutrients faster and at a greater amount.

Well then! Lookie here, now that she’s bent over like so, her lower branches are now exposed to the light better, hell, this might even work out to her advantage.

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Ok, so I got a little silly. That’s ok, I’m sure you are beginning to see what I’m getting at. In nature, stuff like this happens. It’s to be expected, and once again, all I’m trying to do, is bring the outdoors in.

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Now, lets talk about the practical reasons we train. Indoors, we only have so much light (our HID's) and we need to use what we have as efficiently as possible.

Think of it this way, as a plant grows, we have to either raise the light, or drop the plant, because with indoor growing, there is such thing as a plant being too close to the light (heat problems, lummen burn etc.)

If we don’t train, as the plant grows, and the light moves, the only part of the plant that continues to get optimum lighting is the part of the plant that’s closest to the light (the plant top). So think about it, the bottom part of the plant that doesn’t move becomes farther and farther from the light source.

Obviously, this isn’t a good thing; this leads to the plant being nice on top, and crap on the bottom. So how do we get around this? Well, we could do it the hard and expensive way and try to get multiple smaller HID's and light the plant all along the plant vertically. Nah, why makes things so difficult for yourself? How about we simply manipulate the plant ever so cleverly so that every part of the plant is the highest and lowest part of the plant att he same time. Kind of hard to imagine? Ok, just spread out the plant. TIE down the tallest parts of the plant to the same level of the shorter parts of the plant so we have an even plane.

This is all we are attempting to do. To get an even single plane of plant so all of the plant gets equally fantastic lighting, and in the process strengthens itself for the coming buds.

Sounds like fun doesn’t it? It is, this gets addicting, trust me. It all makes so much sense when you think about it. I’m a logical guy, and hell, this makes SENSE. Think about it.

So with the idea explained, and the gay real life example told, we can actually begin. And you know what they say, pictures tell a thousand words.

(Lets just hope the words are better chosen than mine were)


So, Why Train?
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Ok, so this is a pet peeve of mine, and dam it, Im going to address it.

This is why we are here. To Destroy Misinformation. Now, this might be a slight rant, but it’s very much related to the LST theme.

I have fallen victim to the topping fever. I did it, I admit it. That’s ok, I know better now, and so will you. I’ve topped, and i've FIMed, and ill tell you what I observed; what i’ve learned.

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First and foremost

Topping: There is this whole belief that doing this increases your yield. Someone says "Well, how can it not, there are twice as many tops now"

Are there really? NO. In fact, if you actually counted the amount of tops, you just LOST one! YEA, imagine that, YOU cut it off.

Here is where the misinformation comes in. When everybody talks bout topping, they make it sound as if two NEW tops magically sprout from the cut you just made. Now, as nice as that would be, that’s not what happens. What does happen is that the branches below the newly cut top become the new main tops. Now, people do this for a couple reasons. First as I said before, they think they have just doubled their tops. And secondly, because they want to promote a bushier plant.

It baffles my mind how what they just did actually achieved the exact opposite of BOTH of their objectives. Those branches below the cut were there before, and if they weren’t, they should have been. You shouldn’t have to induce them by cutting the main top off. Branches happen REALLY early, if they don’t, it’s a lack of light, good health or some other such reason that’s really irrelevant. The point is, that the branches should have (and in most cases) are ALREADY there.

So when you cut that main top off, you are LOSING a top, SUBTRACTING. All that changes is that the prior secondary tops are no longer secondary.

You have LESS plant, LESS bush, LESS everything; please don’t do this.

This creates undue stress. You just lost a finger.

The plant has to heal, takes time to close the wound; slows down your grow.

NOTHING BENEFICIAL

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Wait, so you are saying topping serves no purpose what so ever?

Gonna make me work for this one eh? Fine, I take it back for now. Let me explain.

As far as topping for the reasons most do it, i'm holding firm to my position. The exception comes with cloning. You obviously need a cutting, so you are going to have to top the plant somewhere (rarely the main top).

Let me just say this though. When taking a clone, it’s important that you take the clone during the day. The plant has a growth hormone called "auxins" that are in the growth tips during the day, and in the roots at night.

This is the same reason it’s advised to NOT top a plant during the day with no intentions to take a clone (all the wrong reasons). It will take the plant that much longer to recover if it loses its valuable auxins because you cup off the top during the day.

Needless to say, if you intend to clone, and root the cutting you just made, take the clone during the day, as it will root faster since all the auxins are there (as it was taken during the day).

So what did we learn? IMO don’t top unless you are taking a cutting for a future clone. If you are going to top anyways, and don’t intend to take a clone, do so at night (toxins in the roots, so none are lost, and you get a quicker recovery time).

When I say night and day, it’s obviously dependant on your light schedule for your plants; not if its literally light or day outside (they don’t live outside, remember).

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FIM: This one is tricky. People get all magical again here, and what it is, is simply a delayed top. (Not that I want to teach anyone how to do this, I have to explain why what you are doing is simply a delayed top)

They (its always they, them, BASTARDS) say to cut 90% of the main top (instead of lopping the whole thing off as with topping). Now inside the main top are other smaller tops and inside those, even smaller future tops and when you cut 90% of the main visible tip, you are left with the small small future tops in that 10% of whats left. Now, somewhere down the line, you topped this. As it grows out (and it does it every time, it may be one, it may be three tops later, but eventually, you see where the last and final top was made) you will see this.

You still topped it, it may not have been as severe, but you still did it, less time to heal but still more than was needed (none).

You just lost a fingernail, that lead to an infection, that led to you losing your finger. You still lost the finger. Do you follow? The top was still made.

But dont take my word for it ::enter reading rainbow theme::

It takes some experience to see what i'm talking about, try it if you must

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The reason people think it creates a more bushy plant:

As the plant is healing the wound, it’s shifting its priorities. It now has to use all its WAS secondary growth (branches). The branches grow out to the same height the top was made, and it gives the illusion of a bushy plant. All you are seeing are your branches grown out. You could have seen that without losing your future main cola.

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Ok smart guy, how do you do it, and why is it better?

Well then, i’m glad you asked

Training is common sense, all your doing is tying your highest growth down and away from your other secondary growth. The main stem being at a 90-degree angle eventually is not uncommon, and in fact, is somewhat required. You are keeping all you tops, but allowing all your growth to get equal lighting.

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I don’t understand, you suck

Ha, ok, time for the real thread and those wonderful pics I was talking about


Materials Needed
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Ok, to do this, we need some sort of restraints, and something to tie the restraints to.

I use thin wire, and a Publix crate, or milk crate (steal your own).

Now, as other options, Ive used kite like string, and also shoe laces for the restraints. I know Delta uses the 5 gallon buckets which he drills holes around the top of for what you tie the restraints to. This is cool because you can use the bucket to plant in, AND to tie to. Where as, I take a pot, and put it inside the crate. On the other hand, take a good look at that crate and see how many places all around the crate i can tie potential restraints to. No need to drill anything.

Pictured here as I said is thin wire. This is good and bad. On the plus side, its very manageable; I can easily shape it however I wish. On the bad side, if not watched, and used as a tight restraint, can cut into the stem. The thin kite like string has the same effect

Shoelaces seem to work best for me, but I simply don’t have a whole lot of laces laying around, nor the time to spare to tie and untie; as it takes quite a bit of patience.

Weigh out your options, use your best judgment

 

[ataxia]

So When Should Training Be Considered?
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First of all, i'm getting this out of the way. It matters not if the plant was from seed, or is a clone.

This is more of a "feel" than an exact science.

I'm tired of useless time frames that simply don’t apply to everybody. I’ve seen some people take months to do the same thing others take weeks to do. Literally.

So we will do this instead; we will use characteristics.

You need the plant to have developed a decent root structure (we don’t want to be pulling the sucker out the soil now do we?).

Now, it’s obviously hard to know what the root structure looks like (as we cant see it), but we can take an educated guess.

You want there to be a certain amount of plant to actually be there to tie down. I used to think that "stretch" was the end of the world, but now I think otherwise. The amount of stem stretch has nothing to do with the future denseness of the bud.



When the plant adapts to the new tied position, it will resituate its tops towards the light. So if you pull down the top of the plant, and its facing outward at a 90-degree angle, you need to plan ahead knowing it will right its top.

So how do you plan ahead?

First of all, don’t tie the tie too high up on the plant. If you grab the very top of the plant, the plant needs to actually grow to resituate itself. You need to leave a somewhat generous amount of plant above the tie. In other words, you need there to be at least half an inch of stem above the tie (because that’s where the bending will happen).

So I showed you a bad candidate, how about a good one.

A nice lanky plant like the one pictured here is a good place to start. Notice the nice amount of formed branches, and also the the generous room allotted for the ties. You know at this size, she’s got some healthy roots already, and will make you fight to pull her out.

Start out slow. As I said before, you will acquire a feel for this. Don’t push (bend) her too far all at once; baby steps (have you seen Bob?).

Make sure the tie is tight enough that it doesn’t slip, but not too tight that it cuts into her. Remember the pros and cons I went over with the ties, it's your decision.

This pic was taken seconds after I applied the tie there. Easy does it, no need to rush. This hobby of ours takes patience, get used to it.

 

[ataxia]

Alright, so you have the first tie *tied* down. very nice. see how she adjusted herself to her new position in just a day? depending on the strain and the health, you will notice changes in hours even.

At this time you should think about a counter tie at her *crown* (trunk)

Depending on the size of your lil one, you can decide to skip this step if you want. The tie will be temporary, as she will strengthen herself to her new shape down the road. But for now, you don’t want to be pulling her out of the dirt with your first tie This is an important time. you will be laying out her future shape. molding her to your liking, for both yours and her benefit.

I find that tying her AROUND the pot works well for me. Fan out her branches so that all of her is getting somewhat equal coverage of light. As she grows, she will continue to grow out in this shape.

I also find that leaving a gap in the *circle* to allow a place to water/feed is required. The larger she gets, the tougher it is for you to get in there and feed her!

All about maintenance! stay on top of it. Have a branch that’s large enough to tie down? then DO so! your in control here, remember.

follow?

 

[ataxia]

Now, I know what your going to say

"Blah blah this is a lst walkthrough, blah blah stop getting side tracked with other crap, blah blah"

How could you say that to me? after all i've done for you? you sit down and listen to me for a sec, and you will see the error in your ways

haha, ok, cant always be serious

anyhow, this is where the useful info starts. we are going to talk about flushing now. and whether you know it or not, flushing ties in nicely with lst.

First of all, what’s flushing? Well, i'm glad you asked!

We use ferts that are salt based. a strong and healthy plant requires a lot of food; a lot of salts.

After a while, these salts start to build up in our medium and we need to flush them out, We need to do this because these salts don’t let our girls take in the nutrients they so badly need. The salt buildup hinders the uptake. so people usually think its underfed and usually over compensate with more ferts. and by this time the plant is super locked up. things only go downhill from here.

What needs to happen to break this cycle is a flush. This is the point where everything comes together. Another big point with tying is that the tying goes in phases.

You shape your girls, bind them down, feed well, and there comes a point where you need to let loose the restraints and let her breathe. usually a few days, maybe a week at the most; giving her time to get some vertical growth in. *stretch her legs out* so to speak.

The point where you need to flush for the first time is also the same time to give your trained plant its *breather* after.

Flushing

Thanks to D for the advice on the flushing

To flush, fill up your bathtub with luke-warm water. You should have Holes drilled in the plastic pot about 2 inches apart from each other around the pot. you can have one, or two rows of these. This allows the water to get in the medium deep during the flush.

You take the pot and dunk it in the water in the tub. Hold it under the water until you see the water seep all the way to the top soil. Once you see that, Do nothing and wait about 5-10 mins. come back to it after the wait, and lift her out of the water and let the water seep out of the pot. The more yellow the water is, thats coming out, the more salt buildup you had. Depending on the size of the plant, that pot can be big and very heavy! especially with the water weight. so you have to hold it up and drain allll the water out. Then you Dunk it back under and let it soak for another 5-10 mins. Repeat the leak down and dunk again. Three times is good. The third leak down should have clear water coming out. No more salt build up in other words. If you need to continue, by all means do so.

So after that flush give your plant that breather time I was talking about. Sometimes If your having pest problems, this would have also been the time for the safers soap spray down. If your not having any pest problems this can be skipped.

Safers Soap Spray Down

Ok, for those of you that are having pest problems (spider mites, whatever else) you should have a safers soap spray down. This is only during the vegetative stage, because the soap is no good for the flowers. So skip this step if you are flowering.

You can get safers soap from Lowes or Home Depot for sure, and I’m sure other places also, but I got mine at Lowes. You should also buy a hand held pumpable spray gun.

You follow the directions on the Safers insecticide soap and mix what it says with water and shake it up real well. When its soapy water pump up your sprayer and spray down your plant real well. Don’t miss a spot. She will be shiny because of the soap and the lights in the bathroom gleaming off of her.

After you got her good. take the sprayer and put plain water in it. pump it up and soak her down REAL good. Do it 5 times if you have to. be positive you got every spot you got with the soap. You don’t want to leave any soap residue.

Some is going to be left over, its going to happen. you can take a damp paper towel and wipe her down the next day when you see the whitish residue left over. Avoid this with and over kill spray down. Do it literally 5 or 6 times.

I look at it as a way to sort of start with a clean slate. you get rid of all the evidence and are left with a nice pot of fresh soil. And a plant that has just been shocked and also has been let free of her binds and she’s going to explode.

During the *breather* after all this its important to not feed/water her at all for a few days. This ties in perfectly for the time that she is free of the binds and is growing madly.

The feeding schedule if done correctly would have called for an extra strong good feeding before the coming flush the next night.

Remember what I said earlier about bringing the outside in? Well this flush, in nature equates to a flood, or a lot, a lot, a lot of rain. A thunderstorm even (if you went with the safers soap and massive stray down after).

Don’t worry about the soap getting into the soil, its good for the plant. potassium if I remember correctly. its all good in the hood for your girl.

If your wondering about the order, it would go like this:

Unbind Trained plant. Drill Holes in pot if not done already.
Flush like I already described
Safers soap plus spray down
3-7 day *breather* with NO feed/waterings.

Its time for nature to throw her a drought.

Making Sense?

So that’s how EVERYTHING comes together. After you do all these things you are ready to ROCK with your girl. She will look pathetic that night when you put her back in her home. but when those lights kick on, its like the storm clouds have cleared and she explodes. She’s in shock, she got kicked around in the storm, and is responding to that also. She has a lot of food stored up from her last feeding and isn’t getting anymore for a while.

Midday the next day she should already be looking good. A shaky image of her old trained shape. By the third day of the drought, she should be looking fantastic and grown a lot already.

When it comes time to end the drought you feed her DEEP. kinda like a woman, ::wink wink:: Slow and deep. You have a strong mix to kind of *make it up to her* for what you put her through. You pour her food slow and in a circular pattern all around the pot. Before you do this with the food mix, do this once with just plain water and H202. Then do the same with the food and go look for those binds again.

Note: the coloration that comes out of her after this deep feed might be yellow. don’t be alarmed, this is normal since you flushed her, deep fed her the night before, and then she went through a drought.

This is where your going to REALLY surprise yourself. Your going to take her new growth and pull it down to train her and be amazed at how wide she will be when she’s laid out. You can try to shape her the way you did before, but it wont be exactly the same, trust me. Once you have her re-tied down and fed, its time to do the WHOLE cycle over again

That last part of the cycle came to an end and now the EASY part comes back. All you need to do is maintain the training and feed her real well.

Let her grow in her new bounded shape for a couple weeks, one week at the very least depending on how rushed you are to move the grow along.

After a while she will have outgrown her tied position once again and its your choice where you want to go from there. you can either do all of which I just described, or you can also switch over to 12/12 and flower her for her first week while she’s also going through her drought. Either way, With the deep feed (her first early flower nute feeding if flowering) after that drought she will explode.

The Wheels On The Bus Go Round and Round...

You can keep up this training for as long as you want. I’ve grown MASSIVE moms and gone through a few of these huge cycles of flushing and droughts and training HARD and then letting go. The longer you stay in veg, the more MASSIVE your plants going to be in flower. Also the more ready to flower the plant will be.
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So this concludes the pause. Now you will be able to understand what my mom was going through as I narrate the rest of her life; and you will see how the tying progresses.

 

[ataxia]

now i realize i should've just posted the thread, but i know how scared some of us are (or at least i am) about linking off this site. forgive me if it seems uninteresting the way this thread has been posted the original is here with pics..... http://www.gardenscure.com/420/training-scrog-sog-supercropping-etc/63090-low-stress-training-lst-more-walk-2.html HOPE THIS IS A HELP TO SOME OF YOU!!

 

[anomolies]

long ass thread.

I think i'm starting to prefer topping / fimming or any other method to LST.

When you LST the top slows down so you end up with the nodes growing out, but they grow tall and lanky. The support isn't so good and the branches have a higher chance of breaking. I'm not sure if the yield is much better either since the new growth reaches for the light and you end up with spaced out nodes.

As the plant is healing the wound, it’s shifting its priorities. It now has to use all its WAS secondary growth (branches). The branches grow out to the same height the top was made, and it gives the illusion of a bushy plant. All you are seeing are your branches grown out. You could have seen that without losing your future main cola.

yea, but with LST'ing you lose your main cola anyway. And if you didn't top the side branches usually never grow out.

With topping you end up with more main colas, and more when you top several times. I don't think the growth rate is that badly effected either, my topped plants are way bigger than my LST'ed.

I guess what I should have done to get better results is LST all the extra growth that results from bending the top over.

I'll keep experimenting though cus I've seen some huge bushes with LST.

 

[phyzix]

A lot of the stuff you copied is just plain wrong.

One example:

Topping a plant absolutely makes it more bushy.

Saying that topping is never beneficial is actually amusing.

 

[ataxia]

A lot of the stuff you copied is just plain wrong.

One example:

Topping a plant absolutely makes it more bushy.

Saying that topping is never beneficial is actually amusing.

i agree that I don't agree with some of the things mentioned in this thread ie; topping, fim. But I posted the thread with the intentions on giving a view of LST .. and how it could work in nature and in the grow room...
I understand what your saying about what the original author wrote. I don't believe that topping is like chopping a plants finger off, or that FIM is like hacking off a fingernail ... But I've used this guys method of lsting and imo the walk through and dummed down explaination of LST is what i loved most about the article....
I posted this for the fact that it's a great tutorial ... and well I believe that LST just works better than topping and fim if no other method is used.
don't get me wrong though .... i still top and fim along with lst... I expect alot more criticism about this thread .... like i said ...
it's more about the LST than the other info provided. rep to ya though for seeing through some of the bullshit.