So , as I was finishing up a bowl, I starting thinking about how people/studies say Soil pH should be around 6.8 while Hydro should be 5.8.

That got me wondering WHY soil changes the level at which a plant uptakes nutrients differently.

Since pH is the "potential for Hydrogen" (ratio of acid to base particles), based off what I see, it must mean- The more Hydrogen available, the lower number on the pH scale. Since water is H20, H for the hydrogen, it seems that when you fill your pot with soil, your not using AS MUCH water, so your pH rises due to not AS MUCH Hydrogen being available. Or your soil just has a lesser value of hydrogen available..... My interpretation anyway.



From what I can figure out and tell, the above statement may be correct. With that said, Since Hydrogen is the "Acid" to pretty much anything... When you test your pH, you are measuring the balance between Hydrogen particles to "bases". The lower your pH is than 7 (neutral), the more acidic your soil is. The pH scale is in multiples of 10 so a pH of 5 has 10x more Hydrogen (acidic particles) than a pH of 6. A pH of 4 has 100x (10 x 10) more "Acidic" (hydrogen) particles than a pH of 6. That should paint a pretty picture.

Now to my next thought which is where all this bullshit might start to make sense and get interesting. Hydroponics have been known to produce quicker and with larger yield than soil. IF Hydro growers are pH to 5.8 and Soil growers to 6.8, that means us Hydro growers have 10x more Hydrogen than soil growers. Plants use a number of things to grow however 3 of the MAIN "things" are Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. The plants use these to manufacture starches and sugars. This makes me ask, Co2 is supplemented and we all know that increases growth like no1's biz... We supplement Oxygen to support healthy roots (in turn increasing growth)... Now, what about Hydrogen? Hydrogen is present in almost all carbon compounds that make up most plant material including enzymes, DNA, RNA, chlorophyll, fats, secondary compounds, and carbohydrates, such as cellulose and sucrose.

So why aren't we supplementing Hydrogen as well? Good question because IF my theory is correct, we have been missing out!


Theory:
Plants seem to like a BALANCE. There can't be TOO much Co2, There can't be TOO much Nitrogen, Phosphorus, or Potassium, There has to be enough Oxygen (in correlation with the amount of Hydrogen "part of my theory"). I think the limiting factors may be associated with the availability of Hydrogen, as long as you BALANCE the Hydrogen (acid) with enough base, N-P-K, Co2, o2, blah blah.. the whole number.

A plants main goal is to grow and really has no Genetic pre-determined height.. I mean you can VEG weed for a long ass time right? With that said and a plants simplicity, it seems provided balanced Hydrogen, base, Nutes, Co2, Oxygen the plant would attempt to adapt to the abundance of everything and STRIVE rather than stress and die... Hydrogen is one of the last elements to complete a Beyond-PERFECT environment that I have yet to read anyone supplementing.

Earlier I mentioned Hydro users have about 10x more Hydrogen available than soil users, in result could be a possibility to why Hydro grows a little quicker and larger. In-case this was not clear, my theory pretty much explains this happens because 10x MORE Hydrogen cells are available to bind with other nutrients to make the plants compounds. Makes sense when Hydrogen is part of almost all plant material compounds...

Possible Solution for HYDRO
When Gas prices hit crazy prices, everyone started making these DIY hydrogen fuel cells and putting plans up online. There extremely easy to make and one could make a hell of one out of house hold current. Using a similar method with a regulator on it (to get a consistent feed to balance everything else), lead the extracted Hydrogen through a tube, in your Res. RIGHT next to your air stone. I am pretty sure the Hydrogen will combine with the Oxygen and form a higher Hydrogen content in your Res. Balance this out with a little more base but be sure to pH the water before adding any Up or Down or Nutes. If your pH is 4.8, your plant should be able to take up 100x, pH=3.8 - 1000x more nutes than soil. I'm not sure if this works, it is just what I hope to test out soon. I'm not sure if there is a limit or anything at all really. I do think that supplementing Co2 will help this effect even more.


I hope this attracts serious people as I some what think I may be on to something. Please don't thread shit with "it wont work" or any other jackass remarks unless you have info to back it up. I've posted a lot of information, most of which I have researched myself so it should be pretty accurate. I welcome any correction/suggestions/ideas/comments because I really do think SOME kind of Hydrogen supplementation would help and I am sure there are others who will after reading this. Lets gets some experiments rolling! Damn I hope I'm right on this.

__________________
- Second Grow - 4'x4' - 400w HPS - 1 Plant Yielded 4.1oz & 22 potent cookies

- My First Grow - 3 Sq. Ft. - 20,600 Lumens - Hydro

you get points for creativity and motivation. i do have a few thoughts about your conclusions.

1. adding hydrogen is the same as lowering the pH with an acidic additive. it's easier to use the additives than to use straight hydrogen.

2. i believe (but don't know without research) that the reason hydro works better than soil is the increased amount of oxygen that reaches the roots compared to soil.

__________________
don;t trust me when i'm baked, i make shit up. bud stud in training - at http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...ts-always.html and http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...melicious.html

Thank you for chiming in! Ok, Here are my responses to your 2 things.

1.) Adding Hydrogen is not the same as adding pH down with an acidic additive. A single ***KEY*** FREE FLOATING ***KEY*** (combined with oxygen "H20") hydrogen atom is what is usable to a plant. Not H3PO4 which is Phosphoric Acid, common for hydro and is what GH uses in their pH down. Besides, if that was usable to the plant, your pH would change dramatically as your plant would be using the Hydrogen from the pH Down. Instead your Hydrogen/Oxygen level stays ABOUT the same in the water when grown correctly- Keeping your pH adjusters working... Because the plant DOESN'T use them.

2.) I believe that as well but I believe that because no one has ever made sense other wise. If you believe its because more Oxygen then why do you not CONSIDER maybe its the increased amount of Hydrogen (Hydrogen is pretty much the element of life) that your plants getting instead!! Or possibly, like my theory says, a BALANCED mixture of Oxygen to Hydrogen.

Good points though

__________________
- Second Grow - 4'x4' - 400w HPS - 1 Plant Yielded 4.1oz & 22 potent cookies

- My First Grow - 3 Sq. Ft. - 20,600 Lumens - Hydro

Just to further make point of this.

I don't know about you guys but when my pH does change and I am running high PPM.. My pH always goes more BASE and my Nutes never seem to make me Acidic. Meaning that More HYDROGEN is being used VS. other elements.

The correlations makes more and more sense the more I think about it. Its trying to use more nutes but since the Nute uptake is Dependant on available Hydrogen and there is a limited amount of Hydrogen to Oxygen ratio.. Bam you get burns- because.. POSSIBLY it uptakes the nutrient without binding to the proper amount of Hydrogen atoms.

__________________
- Second Grow - 4'x4' - 400w HPS - 1 Plant Yielded 4.1oz & 22 potent cookies

- My First Grow - 3 Sq. Ft. - 20,600 Lumens - Hydro

god do i love a good chemistry discussion (admission - i am a geeky chemical engineer).

1. anyway, any acidic additive will create a free hydrogen atom when added to water. actually, relatively free as the hydrogen atom is lightly bound to the basic component of the molecule. if you added completely free hydrogen it would just combine with other hydrogen atoms to form inert h2.

2. granted, it could be oxygen and hydrogen the roots use. if you look around you'll probably find some info on plant biology that tells you what compounds are absorbed by roots.

__________________
don;t trust me when i'm baked, i make shit up. bud stud in training - at http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...ts-always.html and http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...melicious.html

ok Lol.. I am no Chemical Engineer but I am an Engineer... A very analytical one at that.

Response,
I looked for a while earlier and I just looked again and I can't find jack on the absorption rate of Oxygen, Carbon, and Hydrogen. I do believe there is a direct relation to Hydrogen/Oxygen just as important as Carbon/Oxygen is. Maybe when both are dialed in properly and balanced we can push the boundaries even more.

For some reason I was thinking when 2 Hydrogen atoms are introduced to Oxygen H20 is Formed. Yes Hydrogen would bunch together but if dialed in properly the Oxygen would attract 2 Hydrogen per Atom to complete its "charge" Correct? I mean there may be an abundance of Hydrogen at first but eventually it could be dialed in pretty accurate and besides, you could play it safe and give it WAY more Oxygen than Hydrogen to see if there is any difference in results. People manage pretty well with C/O2 and I think that would be harder to manage.

__________________
- Second Grow - 4'x4' - 400w HPS - 1 Plant Yielded 4.1oz & 22 potent cookies

- My First Grow - 3 Sq. Ft. - 20,600 Lumens - Hydro

don't forget the oxygen is in the form of o2, does not easily break apart into two atoms, and does not need the hydrogen to complete its charge because the other oxygen atom does that.

__________________
don;t trust me when i'm baked, i make shit up. bud stud in training - at http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...ts-always.html and http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...melicious.html

HYDROGEN - recycling lost evolved H2 thought it may be of intrest


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Appl Environ Microbiol. 1979 March; 37(3): 582-587



Hydrogen Evolution from Alfalfa and Clover Nodules and Hydrogen Uptake by Free-Living Rhizobium meliloti
Tomás Ruiz-Argüeso, Robert J. Maier and Harold J. Evans
1 Laboratory for Nitrogen Fixation Research, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon 97331


ABSTRACT

A series of Rhizobium meliloti and Rhizobium trifolii strains were used as inocula for alfalfa and clover, respectively, grown under bacteriologically controlled conditions. Replicate samples of nodules formed by each strain were assayed for rates of H2 evolution in air, rates of H2 evolution under Ar and O2, and rates of C2H2 reduction. Nodules formed by all strains of R. meliloti and R. trifolii on their respective hosts lost at least 17% of the electron flow through nitrogenase as evolved H2. The mean loss from alfalfa nodules formed by 19 R. meliloti strains was 25%, and the mean loss from clover nodules formed by seven R. trifolii strains was 35%. R. meliloti and R. trifolii strains also were cultured under conditions that were previously established for derepression of hydrogenase synthesis. Only strains 102F65 and 102F51 of R. meliloti showed measurable activity under free-living conditions. Bacteroids from nodules formed by the two strains showing hydrogenase activity under free-living conditions also oxidized H2 at low rates. The specific activity of hydrogenase in bacteroids formed by either strain 102F65 or strain 102F51 of R. meliloti was less than 0.1% of the specific activity of the hydrogenase system in bacteroids formed by H2 uptake-positive Rhizobium japonicum USDA 110, which has been investigated previously. R. meliloti and R. trifolii strains tested possessed insufficient hydrogenase to recycle a substantial proportion of the H2 evolved from the nitrogenase reaction in nodules of their hosts. Additional research is needed, therefore, to develop strains of R. meliloti and R. trifolii that possess an adequate H2-recycling system.

And check out.....

Journal of Experimental Botany:

Brief exposure to low-pH stress causes irreversible damage to the growing root in Arabidopsis thaliana: pectin–Ca interaction may play an important role in proton rhizotoxicity

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I was thinking this could be done with an electrical current and a couple aluminum dohickies... When you seperate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen, I think it reverse's the charge on the Hydrogen atom or does something to it allowing it to recombine with oxygen once it comes in contact again... Much much how the Fuel cells work these people are posting everywhere. Either way though, wouldn't HO2 be Hydrogen Peroxide? It might take twice as much as straight H2O but I'll take a 50% better growth rate if thats what it means.


Thanks for posting in man. From what I read, it looks like someone tried to supplement straight Hydrogen, 2 Combined Hydrogen atoms and had bad results... IMO I think that would only suffocate a plant more than Sitting Water. By that I mean, you would need proper Oxygen to Hydrogen, much like CO2 to Oxygen or you suffocate your ladies. The plant Breathes/absorbs O2 and Uses C and H to metabolize into cells.

__________________
- Second Grow - 4'x4' - 400w HPS - 1 Plant Yielded 4.1oz & 22 potent cookies

- My First Grow - 3 Sq. Ft. - 20,600 Lumens - Hydro

and the score is 16 to 14 if you aren't watching. seriously, and this about exhausts my knowledge on the subject, i think an electrical current in a fuel cell separates 3 oxygen molecules, making two ozone molecules. the ozone is extremely unstable and combines with h2 to form water and energy. but i could be hallucinating. btw, hydrogen peroxide is h2o2

__________________
don;t trust me when i'm baked, i make shit up. bud stud in training - at http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...ts-always.html and http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...melicious.html